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Old 04.02.2013, 09:03 AM   #81
demonrail666
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I'm sure he appreciates having the option, though.
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Old 04.02.2013, 10:24 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
yeah journos & spin doctors are saying that it's over and done and all that and while i'm encouraged by the shift in public opinion it's not going to be any kind of instant coffee already with sugar in it. there's still going to be a lot of opposition to deal with.

i mean, just look at universal health care: it took 100 years to bring about some form of it (and "obamacare" was really a nixon plan), and the full implementation is still a year away-- and still, it continues to find opposition at every step. very highly fucking annoying.

but still victory is in sight and that's a good thing.

just hang in there & keep punching.

True it is not going to go well with most conservatives of this nation. Unless your a log cabin Republican. I guess we will have to see and wait what the courts say in June.
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Old 04.02.2013, 10:27 AM   #83
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ObamaCare is not state fuinded health care. it is state mandeated health insurance purchasing.

it benefits the status quo, and enriches the con-artists running the health insurance companies, the same fucks who steadily raise rates on doctors for their malpractice insurance, forcing the doctors to raise their rates, effectively pricing out poor people from adequate health care.

fuck the insurance companies.
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Old 04.02.2013, 10:48 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
ObamaCare is not state fuinded health care. it is state mandeated health insurance purchasing.

it benefits the status quo, and enriches the con-artists running the health insurance companies, the same fucks who steadily raise rates on doctors for their malpractice insurance, forcing the doctors to raise their rates, effectively pricing out poor people from adequate health care.

fuck the insurance companies.

not really-- you can opt to no buy health insurance and pay a very reasonable fee.

why a fee?

because uninsured patients in emergency rooms are a huge cost driver for hospitals

but guess what-- if you can't afford insurance there are subsidies to help you.

and companies can only make a limited profit now-- if they make more they send their customers a refund.

lastly, you can't be denied coverage for preexisting conditions.

i don't see the problem here. well maybe if everyone were responsible to pay for their health care and emergency rooms weren't mandated to treat patients regardless of coverage we wouldn't need the fee for the uninsured. but i figure those who can afford health care without insurance can help the general welfare.
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Old 04.02.2013, 10:54 AM   #85
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The problem is that it all rides on the back of insurance companies whose bottom line concern is raking in as much $$ as possible. Socialized medicine, for all it's drawbacks, (and what does not have drawbacks) emphasizes the most good for the most people, or should.

forcing people to buy health insurance does nto lower health costs. it does not guarantee medical care, it does not provide the indigent and poor with health care. what it does is make it a state law that we have to purchase something.
I find that bullshit in the extreme.

Imagine if, instead of the local government's paying for public schools outright, they instead just passed a law stating that people had to pay for "insurance" in case their kids needed schooling. is that not just stupid and needlessly bureaucratic?
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Old 04.02.2013, 10:55 AM   #86
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Insurance is a con-game anyways, no matter how you slice it.

the biggest con-game in the USA is the stock market, teh second biggest is the Insurance industry.
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Old 04.02.2013, 11:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
The problem is that it all rides on the back of insurance companies whose bottom line concern is raking in as much $$ as possible.

oh no man! that's no longer the case after the ACA! 80-85% must be spent on medical care or refunded to customers. the profit margin is thereby reined in.

http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/20...in-your-state/

i can't reply to the rest of your post right now but cost is another story. however, the ACA is an improvement overall. certainly not perfect, but an improvement.

socialized medicine would never have passed congress. incidentally, i'm against it (though i'm for it as an option, e.g., join an HMO if you want)
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Old 04.02.2013, 11:10 AM   #88
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okay i stole a couple of minutes between phone calls. let me answer quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Imagine if, instead of the local government's paying for public schools outright, they instead just passed a law stating that people had to pay for "insurance" in case their kids needed schooling. is that not just stupid and needlessly bureaucratic?

the "government" doesn't pay for schools "outright". people pay taxes, which in turn pay for schools. so everyone, even those who not use them, pay for public schools. and there is a mandate to educate all children-- either in public, private, or homeschools, everyone must comply.

if you don't like insurance, you have the option to pay a health care tax, which is the so-called penalty for not buying insurance in the market. so that way you can pay for health care "outright". so basicaly you have a choice between paying a tax ("outright") or buying insurance ("just in case").

of course the tax is small and not enough to cover everyone-- just the ones who skip out on their bills, in theory anyway.
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Old 04.02.2013, 11:35 AM   #89
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the government IS the people. They use taxes to pay for everything, especially the stuff we never hear about. Nearly 1 TRILLION in black Ops secret budget. yet, the whiners cry about a 60 million dollar budget for the National Endowment for the Arts, or money for PBS.
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Old 04.02.2013, 11:52 AM   #90
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black ops, fine, but the ACA is not like what you're saying, is my point.

the ACA may not be perfect but it's a huge step in providing a health care safety net without removing freedom of choice, and while it expands the insurance market it also limits profits and provides extended coverage for the poor. it's not a bad law.

don't believe the sarah palin logic of "the goverment is forcing me to buy something". those are people who don't have the public interest in mind.
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Old 04.02.2013, 12:55 PM   #91
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Oh I am not seeing it that way. what we are being forced to do is to pay for an insurance company subsidy, essentially socializing the health insurance business to the benefit of insurance shareholders, not the people who need treatment and health care.
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Old 04.02.2013, 01:09 PM   #92
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Oh I am not seeing it that way. what we are being forced to do is to pay for an insurance company subsidy, essentially socializing the health insurance business to the benefit of insurance shareholders, not the people who need treatment and health care.

right, but having choice of health insurance plans gives you the option to go for either the cadillac plans or the high-deductible version or anything in between. you can join a health co-op or you can pay the tax and spend your own money in your own private care. in other ways you're incentivized into the market but you're not forced and it's still a market.

what bothers me about the ACA is that this law burdens businesses with providing health insurance for its employees, which is not something that businesses should be doing. seriously, especially for small businesses, it's a pain in the ass. an employer is not/ shouldn't be someone's mommy.

health insurance and employment need to be decoupled--- this would not only be great for businesses who could then concentrate on what they do best, but also would grant people greater flexibility of employment.

on the other hand-- universalizing socialized medicine means everyone has to wait in the same line or has no option of a second opinion which i think you'd agree goes against the general american ethos of 1,000 breakfast cereals to choose from (even if it's just 2 or 3 large corporations that produce them all).

i have had my share of experiences with socialized health care and it's not the dream some people think it is. (it's not all-bad either, but one size does not fit all).

--

anyway, time for the next round of uefa champions matches and i'm shitting my pants.
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Old 04.02.2013, 01:24 PM   #93
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health insurance and medical care need to be decoupled. that is my whole POINT!

I need to hook up my xbox 360 (just moved) so I can watch ESPN coverage streams of the UEFA champions matches!
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Old 04.02.2013, 01:44 PM   #94
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hurry up man!

moral hazard is issue will talk later.
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