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Old 01.14.2014, 01:49 PM   #17701
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to demonrail666 again.

How is it that you enjoy so much pulp American westerns?? They suck! and I GREW UP playing cowboy with six-shooters but the ones you like are boring as fuck.

It's an American thing, I'm convinced. Those old classic Westerns seem to be far more respected in Europe than they do in their own country. I know more Americans who prefer Spaghetti Westerns than I do those who like Ford, etc. I just don't get it.
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Old 01.14.2014, 01:52 PM   #17702
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
I HAVEN'T SEEN CHUMLUM!

disc 1 didn't contain it. of your faves, it only had aleph. ALEPH.

which maybe was great, but after 2 hours of dancing shapes it just didn't register.

Haha, fair enough. Aleph could fall into the 'dancing shapes' category I suppose. But 'edgier', more 'punk' maybe.

And Chumlum ... be amazed ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTh28C1ngn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voYmY9DXQG0
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:03 PM   #17703
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
It's an American thing, I'm convinced. Those old classic Westerns seem to be far more respected in Europe than they do in their own country. I know more Americans who prefer Spaghetti Westerns than I do those who like Ford, etc. I just don't get it.

I feel you on that, maybe its because in Europe these appear as romantic whereas in America they come across more so as campy? I bet its also reversed, I bet Americans LOVE all the European flicks y'all think of shit.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:09 PM   #17704
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
True, but I think most people go into a film with certain structural expectations, which experimental films tend not to fulfill. With music, people tend to be more fluid, especially considering that film attacks more of the senses simultaneously. Music you just hear, experimental film can quite literally leave you disoriented and confused.

It's an odd one, I agree. Film makes far greater demands I suppose. You can't really do anything else but watch it till it ends. Painting has no demands on your time and music at least allows you to do other things while you're listening to it.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:16 PM   #17705
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
Painting has no demands on your time and music at least allows you to do other things while you're listening to it.

Interestingly this is EXACTLY why my favorite gigs to perform have always been at art shows and exhibitions. It allows for a unique environment, where the audience isn't nailed to either art piece, they can meander somewhere in between listening to live music and viewing great visual art. It complements both media
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:24 PM   #17706
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
I feel you on that, maybe its because in Europe these appear as romantic whereas in America they come across more so as campy? I bet its also reversed, I bet Americans LOVE all the European flicks y'all think of shit.

There's a definite 'otherness' thing going on there. Like you say, a lot of Americans have a hard on for Godard, Bergman, etc. European cinema has no equivalent of a John Wayne or a Howard Hawks just as I suppose the US has no real equivalent of a Marcello Mastroianni or a Fellini.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:24 PM   #17707
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
Haha, fair enough. Aleph could fall into the 'dancing shapes' category I suppose. But 'edgier', more 'punk' maybe.

And Chumlum ... be amazed ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTh28C1ngn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voYmY9DXQG0

thanks! but no thanks… i'll wait for disc 2! seems like the more interesting stuff is there anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
Ford

funny you mention him, just watched "my darling clementine" this past weekend and we thought it was pretty great-- it has a lot of funny moments for a gunslinging melodrama. sucka was pretty great at setting up his shots too, and the actors were great. yeah, some brown people stereotypes that can't be helped with the times, but we're old enough that we can laugh at them. actually, did you know that john ford was made an honorary navajo? funny and true. it was also funny to see tombstone, az, right around the corner from monument valley-- but you'd only know that if you know the area. anyway, some day you'll see for yourself, ha ha ha.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:40 PM   #17708
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
thanks! but no thanks… i'll wait for disc 2! seems like the more interesting stuff is there anyway.



funny you mention him, just watched "my darling clementine" this past weekend and we thought it was pretty great-- it has a lot of funny moments for a gunslinging melodrama. sucka was pretty great at setting up his shots too, and the actors were great. yeah, some brown people stereotypes that can't be helped with the times, but we're old enough that we can laugh at them. actually, did you know that john ford was made an honorary navajo? funny and true. it was also funny to see tombstone, az, right around the corner from monument valley-- but you'd only know that if you know the area. anyway, some day you'll see for yourself, ha ha ha.

Probably my favourite film of all time. It's historical inaccuracies are as irrelevant as they'd be in a piece of Greek myth and, as you say, the racism is just a mark of its age. It's the hugeness of its message that I love: the attempt to make a kind of American origin story out of hackneyed figures from history. Like the scene where Doc Holliday completes the 'undiscovered country' line from Hamlet. Of course that never actually happened but Ford invented it and in-so-doing managed to create an entire 'idea' of America, as a nation. Big stuff.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:47 PM   #17709
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
I can see why you say that but I've never understood why people who can listen to the most extreme music have such a problem with more overtly-experimental areas of film. Couldn't pretty much everything you say about Brakhage, etc, be just as easily levelled at a lot of the more experimental types of music that get so much support here?

sound/music does not need to tell a cohesive story. It works on a "lower'" level of the brain, where impulse is generated by experience. I enjoy free jazz like a motherfucker, noise improv, etc. I fucking creamed HEARING Lee and the fellas perform as Text of Light. I just hate Brakhage's "films." they are pointless, or at the most, have one single "point" to them, and then it is endlessly repeated over and over again. abstract film is not enjoyable to me. It is essentially a form of "look what neat new thing I can make my camera/lens/film do!" which is interesting for a second.
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Old 01.14.2014, 02:55 PM   #17710
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
I can see why you say that but I've never understood why people who can listen to the most extreme music have such a problem with more overtly-experimental areas of film. Couldn't pretty much everything you say about Brakhage, etc, be just as easily levelled at a lot of the more experimental types of music that get so much support here?

I was thinking along those lines when I read $5&*4 saying that he found some of those films boring and after looking at what's on offer on the DVD. I think that with a lot of experimental movies, particularly with stuff that came out in the 50s, 60s and to an extent the 70s, one of the things that can be misguiding is the fact that there are many works normally referred to as examples of movie-making, when today probably we'd rather call them video art or something similar to that. I can't think of someone like Harry Smith as a movie director on the same level as Kenneth Anger or John Waters, to name two people who came out from underground films, because to me Smith has a more ''painterly'' attitude to creating moving images, whereas people like Anger and Waters have a proper ''cinematic'' approach to films, regardless of their initial primitivism. It's no coincidence that a visual artist like Warhol had to usher in the expertise of someone like Paul Morrissey to give his experiments with film something resembling a more traditional approach, even though his early work was influenced by the classic black and white Hollywood age by his own admission. To me he was incapable of distancing himself from his visual artist approach to images when using a video camera, and that's why he sort of gave up and let someone else do most of the work.
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Old 01.14.2014, 03:26 PM   #17711
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
sound/music does not need to tell a cohesive story. It works on a "lower'" level of the brain, where impulse is generated by experience.

I agree, humans are pattern seeking animals, and we are also story tellers, so when confronted with film people tend to expect some kind of narrative. With music, these expectations are different, the basic structures and patterns of music (tempo, cadence, timbre, tone) are still present in even the most chaotic experimental music pieces, collages, and soundscapes. The ear intuitively "hears" these underlying structures and is therefore more or less satisfied. Same thing with a painting, it is confined by the parameters of the frame and canvas, so people can begin to more readily identify the patterns. With experimental film? Anything goes, and the expectations towards narrative are harder to spot. People who enjoy more experimental film I think are those who are more easily imaginative and fill in the intellectual gaps without having to be queued..
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Old 01.14.2014, 04:16 PM   #17712
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it could also be that people who "enjoy" experimental film are just trying to seem cooler than those who do not...

images to humans imply narrative, even abstract imagery. HUmans, as you state, cannot help this. However, everyone the world over loves Gangam Style.
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Old 01.14.2014, 04:58 PM   #17713
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Originally Posted by Genteel Death
To me he was incapable of distancing himself from his visual artist approach to images when using a video camera, and that's why he sort of gave up and let someone else do most of the work.

Warhol obviously liked a certain idea of Hollywood but seemed to have no interest at all in storytelling. Although I'd say that, even more than his interest in visual qualities, his main inspiration always seemed to be with personalities - the Superstars being the one constant linking his early single camera stuff and Morrissey's more narrative films. Even with his supposedly more banal subject matter (Eat, Sleep, Empire,) he never just chose his stars at random. They were always people or things (the Empire State building) that he felt had a certain star quality. (It's not just a random person sleeping or eating, it's John Giorno or Robert Indiana.) That's why I think there's a core contradiction in Warhol's own idea that anyone could be famous for 15 minutes. He was very particular about who did and who didn't qualify as a 'star'. His was a different criteria to Hollywood's but arguably even more selective. I can only think of a handful of bona fide Hollywood stars who would've cut it at The Factory alongside the likes of Viva or Ondine.
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Old 01.14.2014, 05:27 PM   #17714
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
it could also be that people who "enjoy" experimental film are just trying to seem cooler than those who do not...

Come on, anything that's considered outside the mainstream or 'difficult' attracts its fair share of pseuds. What are you meant to do? Pretend not to like something, to avoid association with the posers? You'd probably have to distance yourself from 90% of your record collection if that were true.
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Old 01.14.2014, 05:42 PM   #17715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666

Just finished watching this - a pretty impressive effort from Mr Rice. Very dreamlike/trippy, with a touch of erotica too. The soundtrack is vaguely reminiscent to the one employed in Maya Deren's "Meshes Of The Afternoon". Wonder how it would come across on a big screen?
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Old 01.14.2014, 05:48 PM   #17716
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
Come on, anything that's considered outside the mainstream or 'difficult' attracts its fair share of pseuds. What are you meant to do? Pretend not to like something, to avoid association with the posers? You'd probably have to distance yourself from 90% of your record collection if that were true.

Any record which makes me feel like pretending to like it gets SOLD! I got rid of all Animal Collective, Earth, Lightning Bolt. BORING!
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Old 01.14.2014, 05:49 PM   #17717
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Melly^The soundtrack was by Angus Maclise.

I've never seen it in a cinema but would love to.
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Old 01.14.2014, 06:02 PM   #17718
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Originally Posted by demonrail666
Melly^The soundtrack was by Angus Maclise.

I've never seen it in a cinema but would love to.

Thanks, demon - think this is the separate soundtrack here: http://youtu.be/AU4GL7LCvOk

Interesting to note that this would have preceded MacLise's somewhat brief stint in the Velvet Underground. Didn't yer man end up moving to Kathmandu or somewhere like that?
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Old 01.14.2014, 06:13 PM   #17719
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Yeah, don't know much about him other than that he was meant to be pretty full on as a person, even compared with others in that scene. Isn't Lou Reed rumoured to have kicked him out the Velvets cos of it?
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Old 01.14.2014, 06:17 PM   #17720
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He left the band when they got their first paid series of gigs because he didn't like having to turn up at a certain time and finish to play when they were told to.
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