[louder]

yawn.

[A Thousand Threads]

Originally Posted by knox

in a way it's kind of worse because if he would break people's legs he'd have to do one at a time and by maintaining this speech he's endorsing and maintaining thousands of years of stigmatization and heteronormativity.

Well, but only in a way. What's worse, symptom or disease?
Don't want to sound esoteric, but i'm all for a holistic approach.

[Nefeli]

Originally Posted by knox

the fact is, dear, we do need feminism for that.
if you think that's how people should normally think, then you already are a feminist.
and the sad truth is, they don't. not the majority of them.

yeah what i was concluding up there, is that we need feminism for that, because people dont think harder. or like i said we need various voices to exist, nomatter if we agree or not with them.
and i m a feminist since i can remember myself.
but i was always considering myself humansmth instead, because i m thinking women and men as humans and thats how i express and get through my feminism. its like saying i am a feminist, is like accepting there is an issue by default and then trying to fight for women's rights, whereas i prefer to speak like there isnt an 'issue', because there shouldnt be one.

yeah, not expressing it well.
an example- have said all these before..
the riot girrll thing. i didnt like it called that way. i understand that perhaps there wasnt any other way to be called. however, it made me think that it transmitted further more he idea, that women dont have their place in music world etc.

[knox]

Originally Posted by A Thousand Threads

Well, but only in a way. What's worse, symptom or disease?
Don't want to sound esoteric, but i'm all for a holistic approach.

I don't know, to be honest.
Legally, you'd look at it one day.
Morally, it'd be a different story.

But of course it's always better to tackle the source of the disease instead of just treating/masking isolated symptoms?

[knox]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

yeah what i was concluding up there, is that we need feminism for that, because people dont think harder. or like i said we need various voices to exist, nomatter if we agree or not with them.
and i m a feminist since i can remember myself.
but i was always considering myself humansmth instead, because i m thinking women and men as humans and thats how i express and get through my feminism. its like saying i am a feminist, is like accepting there is an issue by default and then trying to fight for women's rights, whereas i prefer to speak like there isnt an 'issue', because there shouldnt be one.

yeah, not expressing it well.
an example- have said all these before..
the riot girrll thing. i didnt like it called that way. i understand that perhaps there wasnt any other way to be called. however, it made me think that it transmitted further more he idea, that women dont have their place in music world etc.

Feminists fight for equality, yeah.
There are very good texts that show how it is impossible to be a humanist without being a feminist.

Pretending an issue is not there never makes it go away and it always seem to give an advantage to whoever is taking advantage of that situation.

I don't think "riot grrrls" called themselves that. I think a patronizing, sexist media did, as they turned it into a commodity for their own amusement.

I have discussed this with Glice many times, but you would have no idea how many people simply assume I don't write music or play instruments just based on my gender. Or people who feel that somehow it's cute to see a woman playing or how many times people compile 'women in music' lists. They also seem to think 'female vocalist' is a genre.... but this is a story for a different thread.

[Nefeli]

i agree with all that.
just to clarify, i m not pretending or avoiding anything.
i speak openly and say what i feel is needed to be said; i just do it without feeling that i have to characterize myself in any way.
i mean, i have met men who have said to me: i m a feminist.
so what?
from the way you will talk, i will understand many things about what you are.
or when people say, i m homosexual friendly.
if you think about it, its ridiculous to say smth like that.
i understand that we say terms, because it saves us time and dont get me wrong i used to call myself out to people a feminist for years, when i was little, i still might do if i have to, i just prefer to do things the way i do now.

[Rob Instigator]

while it would be ideal to live in a society that teaches people not to rape, the sad fact is that sociopaths will do whatever they feel like doing because they just don't care, no matter what you teach them.

It is analogous to police. they cannot stop people from breaking into your home. the only thing they can do is try and teach ways to keep yourself from being broken into, and then after it happens, to try and catch (ha!) the person that broke in.

If it was simply a matter of education it could be fixed for good.

"A sociopath is simply a human who combines a total absence of empathy with a profound sense of entitlement. They feel no pain but their own." - Andrew Vachss

Those people cannot be taught. They learn how to respond in the manner that will gain them approval, regardless of how far that response is from what they truly feel.

Our current society seems to create more sociopaths than ever. Many people argue that the pop culture breeds and ingrains these thoughts into people who are susceptible to becoming sociopaths.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

i agree with all that.
just to clarify, i m not pretending or avoiding anything.
i speak openly and say what i feel is needed to be said; i just do it without feeling that i have to characterize myself in any way.
i mean, i have met men who have said to me: i m a feminist.
so what?
from the way you will talk, i will understand many things about what you are.
or when people say, i m homosexual friendly.
if you think about it, its ridiculous to say smth like that.
i understand that we say terms, because it saves us time and dont get me wrong i used to call myself out to people a feminist for years, when i was little, i still might do if i have to, i just prefer to do things the way i do now.

the thing is, when you don't say "i'm a feminist", it makes us weaker.
it makes it sound like it's a bad word or something that you wouldn't want to identify yourself as one.

men/people will tell you that like it's some sort of insult when they are annoyed you're not being as submissive as they would like you to.

but there's nothing wrong with being a feminist or a LGBTT supporter, I'm very proud of those things myself.

I hope you understand what I mean.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

while it would be ideal to live in a society that teaches people not to rape, the sad fact is that sociopaths will do whatever they feel like doing because they just don't care, no matter what you teach them.

It is analogous to police. they cannot stop people from breaking into your home. the only thing they can do is try and teach ways to keep yourself from being broken into, and then after it happens, to try and catch (ha!) the person that broke in.

If it was simply a matter of education it could be fixed for good.

"A sociopath is simply a human who combines a total absence of empathy with a profound sense of entitlement. They feel no pain but their own." - Andrew Vachss

Those people cannot be taught. They learn how to respond in the manner that will gain them approval, regardless of how far that response is from what they truly feel.

Our current society seems to create more sociopaths than ever. Many people argue that the pop culture breeds and ingrains these thoughts into people who are susceptible to becoming sociopaths.

Are you seriously trying to argue that every rapist is a sociopath?
Doesn't even make sense IN NUMBERS.
But if you most know, all rapists think all men do the same thing as they do.
http://dbzer0.com/blog/feminists-don...sts-rapists-do

It's like I accidentaly got myself in a time machine and went back in the 1950s or something.

[Rob Instigator]

you really read a lot into things knox.

I was just making a comment about the inability to teach people NOT to do evil things.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

you really read a lot into things knox.

I was just making a comment about the inability to teach people NOT to do evil things.

And their ability to teach them to go ahead and do evil things and still exempt themselves of any responsability over the message they convey or what it represents.

Oh, and by the way, people don't become sociopaths, they just are, and they are a minority. And we don't have any more sociopaths than ever, we have more powerful weapons that enable them to do more crazy shit.

Now, can we teach people to operate in a sociopath-like logic when we tell them it's acceptable to forget empathy, self-assessment and responsibility over certain things? Of course. We can even teach them that there's nothing wrong with it or that it's only natural and that they're still "good people".

That's how sexism, racism and discrimination operate.

[Rob Instigator]

you are wrong knox. people can and do become sociopaths.

read up on it.

Most serial rapists, killers, abusers who can be classified as sociopaths come themselves from backgrounds of terrible abuse, terrible trauma. Not every abuse victim becomes sociopathic, but many do as a response to the world which they have experienced, full of fear and endless terror. It creates a disconnect in the brain, a willful detachment from shared "reality."

[knox]

No. People do not become sociopaths.
Sociopaths that have been exposed to violent environments can become VIOLENT sociopaths. Most sociopaths aren't violent.

No one knows the cause of the neurological abnormalities that have been recently observed that can cause someone to be unable to feel empathy, but people are born that way. Society can shape HOW violent/dangerous someone with antissocial disorder can become.

And it's in that sense that a violent environment enhances violent leanings.

Most people who have been abused or witnessed violence as children do not grow up to be violent and cannot "become" sociopaths.

The great majority of "sociopaths" never kill or rape anyone.
The vast majority of rapists are not sociopaths.

It's kind of funny that you tell me to read up on it when I've been reading about it for 5 years now.

So, no, YOU read up on it.
Start with Dr. Hare.
And stop talking about things you don't know, please.

[Trama]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

i m going to post this picture here; i saw it posted somewhere else today.
i would post it in the irrelevant thread and only for not to be misunderstood that it has anything to do with the rape comments here or in the other thread, if there were any. but it is going to get lost in there.

so it has nothing to do with rape comments here
and i m bad for not taking the time to read both threads.

 

the point i want to make with this pic
is smth i wanted to say in the other thread as well, but now this pic helps me.

we dont exactly need feminism for that.
for me it is the way that people should normally think.
its because people are lazy or because it suits them better, not to try and think bit harder. you know, just do a couple of more turns in your thoughts. see more ankles of what you are thinking.
thats why i always welcomed extreme voices for example in politics, even if i might not agree with what their saying; even though it might come against my extremely anti-violent position in all matters.*
because it helps people to shake their minds a bit.


* and since i m honest, dont think for a minute that there arent times when i question this about myself.
i think harder when that happens. (totally irrelevant that now).

It should be in name of the principle of fairness and not penis or vagina. I feel the same way about it.

[Rob Instigator]

your absolutism is pathetic knox

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

read up on it.

If I may (once more) interject, between the ooglings of knoxy's juicy badunkadunk, please, please, rise above this behavior.

"read up on it" & "study up on it" are the hallmarks of a failed argument, typically reserved for creationists, pro-lifers, gun-nuts and flat-worlders.

It brings nothing to the table except for a veiled jab that (often wrongly) suggests that the user of this phrase is more well-versed in whatever given subject is at hand, but is simply a lazy cop-out.

You are better than this....don't do it!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

the fact is, dear, we do need feminism for that.
if you think that's how people should normally think, then you already are a feminist.
and the sad truth is, they don't. not the majority of them.

Originally Posted by knox

the thing is, when you don't say "i'm a feminist", it makes us weaker.
it makes it sound like it's a bad word or something that you wouldn't want to identify yourself as one.

men/people will tell you that like it's some sort of insult when they are annoyed you're not being as submissive as they would like you to.
.

Feminism (from the Latin "Of women")
+
attacking women who disagree with you
=
DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Nefeli

but i was always considering myself humansmth instead, because i m thinking women and men as humans and thats how i express and get through my feminism.

whereas i prefer to speak like there isnt an 'issue', because there shouldnt be one.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Nefeli again.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Nefeli again.

nefeliiiiiiii! clear yr pms for a subject totally unrelated to this ( i thought you'd read this thread, see)

[!@#$%!]

thanks! back later...