[Rob Instigator]

I thought they already had universal background checks? at least at actual gun stores. It is not illegal to sell your friend a firearm though, and there is no background checks on that

I am fine for control of assault weapons, but ex-soldiers should be allowed to own them, because they have been trained in their use.

You have noticed though that LA police have not stopped using their body armor, their high caliber assault rifles, tanks, etc.? And that nearly every mid to large size police force in the country has enacted the same exact measures, regardless of whether they actually need to?

The police forces are becoming more and more highly militarized, as the populace is becoming less capable of arming themselves.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I thought they already had universal background checks? at least at actual gun stores. It is not illegal to sell your friend a firearm though, and there is no background checks on that

No. What is actually frightening is that upwards of FORTY PERCENT of all firearms purchases are not background checked because of private sale loopholes and gunshows. We need to tighten and strengthen those laws to make it fair for all gun owners, some gun owners should not be exempted from laws which other gun owners have to follow

You have noticed though that LA police have not stopped using their body armor, their high caliber assault rifles, tanks, etc.? And that nearly every mid to large size police force in the country has enacted the same exact measures, regardless of whether they actually need to?

That is some psychological warfare. They were that shit to (a) pump up their own bravado and (b) scare the community into thinking things are still as dangerous as they were in 1992, they're not. The numbers don't lie our murder rate is down 600% over the past 20 years, and assault rifles and high-velocity ammunition is also in significant decline. Again, criminals get it from the same place legit people do, if legit people have less or no access to these weapons and munitions, criminals are equally in the long arc cut off.

The police forces are becoming more and more highly militarized, as the populace is becoming less capable of arming themselves.

Yes, but that is not because crime in increasing, it because the law is taking our kindness for weakness. You are conflating two completely separate issues. One of the increasing militarization of law enforcement and another of decrease or increase in crime. One is not always correlated with the other.

I reiterate.

The compromise is fair. 100% background checks with NO loopholes, period. Ammunition restrictions to limit the access of criminals. Bans on uber-dangerous assault weapons which serve no legitimate purpose. I don't even want decommissioned PTSD recovering jarheads (if they want these weapons, stay in the service yo) having these things in their homes to scare the shit out of their wives

[Rob Instigator]

criminals get their guns in many ways, stealing them from gun owners is a HUGE one. The people manufacturing the guns, and ammunition, are the ones behind the NRA, not actual gun owners.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

criminals get their guns in many ways, stealing them from gun owners is a HUGE one. The people manufacturing the guns, and ammunition, are the ones behind the NRA, not actual gun owners.

Thank you, as long as we can concede that point, we are mutually agreeing to the founding premise of gun-control in the first place. The premise of gun-control is not to punish lawful gun owners, rather the accept the statistical reality that guns universally come from one place, gun manufacturers. How do gun manufacturers distribute their products? Retailers. Less retailers = less guns by volume. Less guns by volume = naturally less access to guns by criminals. Criminals steal them from retailers, owners, and warehouses/storage facilities. If you simply have less guns around, you have less opportunities for criminals to get them. The more guns that exist, the more statistically likely it is that criminals will have them.

Between 1980-1990 there were about 4 MILLION HANDGUNS alone sold in America, a 200% increase from the previous decades. What was the homicide rate in 1992? Over 3,000 in Los Angeles alone, some 40,000 nationally.. From 1999-2010 there were less than 2 MILLION Handguns sold because of state and national restrictions. What was the murder rate in 2011? Less than 600 in Los Angeles and only 11,078 fire-arm related homicides. Numbers don't lie y'all.. Less guns equals less murders, period

 

[Bytor Peltor]

Comparing U.S. Gun Violence With The Rest Of The World: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/schoo-shooting-how-do-u-s-gun-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

 

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

BTW, some of the most well-armed and trained gun owners in America are descendants and family of Jews who survived or escaped the Nazi Holocaust. They did not have guns when Hitlers assholes came for them, because Hitler mandated the general populace be disarmed.

This is not a bullshit scare tactic by those who bring it up. It is historical evidence.

Everyone brings up the lack of guns in Japan, but that has not stopped the HIGH rates of suicide, or violent crime by Yakuza or other criminals. Everyone mentions the UK, but FUCK THAT SHIT. They are slowly becoming a totalitarian state, where everyone is filmed everywhere they go, where you have to pay and get a license to watch television, where only the government and their stooges have weapons.

The violent crime rate in the UK is HUGE

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour. . . .
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

• The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.

• It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

• The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.

• It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France. . . .

In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. . . .

And having more guns on the street would bring it down? Get a grip.

[h8kurdt]

And if you're gonna start throwing statistics around then here's a couple.

"The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 homicides in the United States in 2010, including non-negligent manslaughter."

And I don't know where you got your stats from but from the http://www.unodc.org/

The UK's homocide rate is 1.4 actually lower than France which is 1.6.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Between 1980-1990 there were about 4 MILLION HANDGUNS alone sold in America, a 200% increase from the previous decades. What was the homicide rate in 1992? Over 3,000 in Los Angeles alone, some 40,000 nationally.. From 1999-2010 there were less than 2 MILLION Handguns sold because of state and national restrictions. What was the murder rate in 2011? Less than 600 in Los Angeles and only 11,078 fire-arm related homicides.

your numbers actually argue the opposite - when there were x+4 million handguns available, the national homicide rate was 40K, but when the number of handguns increased to x+6 million, the rate went down to 11K. Your numbers show when there are more handguns there are less murders.

Now, I'm just playing games here, because usually the economy is used to explain why murder rates went down.

See, I'm skeptical because police chiefs in San Diego are not liberals-they want to cripple the american people
"Chief Lansdowne, who plays an active role in the western region of the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) association, said it may take a generation but guns will eventually be taken off the streets through new laws like Senator Diane Feinstein's proposed assault weapons ban legislation. Some of the items his organization is addressing include; a ban on assault weapons, restricting high-capacity magazines, closing loopholes that allow firearm sales between private owners without background checks, and implementing much stricter background checks by using a comprehensive database."

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by tesla69

your numbers actually argue the opposite - when there were x+4 million handguns available, the national homicide rate was 40K, but when the number of handguns increased to x+6 million, the rate went down to 11K. Your numbers show when there are more handguns there are less murders.

Now, I'm just playing games here, because usually the economy is used to explain why murder rates went down.

See, I'm skeptical because police chiefs in San Diego are not liberals-they want to cripple the american people
"Chief Lansdowne, who plays an active role in the western region of the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) association, said it may take a generation but guns will eventually be taken off the streets through new laws like Senator Diane Feinstein's proposed assault weapons ban legislation. Some of the items his organization is addressing include; a ban on assault weapons, restricting high-capacity magazines, closing loopholes that allow firearm sales between private owners without background checks, and implementing much stricter background checks by using a comprehensive database."

I see what you did there, and its bullshit. Had the sale rates stayed at 1980s levels there would have been TWO MILLION MORE GUNS on the streets in the 2000s than were sold, period. That is TWO MILLION less guns than were sold in the 1980s. Further, h8kurt has already concurred with my statements.

1992 was the beginning of stricter hand gun regulations in DC, New York, and California. Low and behold after 20 years of gun control in those states what have we found?

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

And if you're gonna start throwing statistics around then here's a couple.

"The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 homicides in the United States in 2010, including non-negligent manslaughter."

Two-fold reduction is a bit less than California's sixfold reduction, but the national figures speak for themselves. Gun advocates are simply delusional to the reality of the past twenty years, and it is starting to get embarrassing. What I find interesting the most, is that people who have ACTUALLY experienced gun violence tend to be more realistic about guns, and folks who are simply living a fantasy/fear based life tend to have the most guns and those pussies never even have a reason or need to use them

[jon boy]

and another one, a day after someone went nuts with a gun in an office block: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21286571

not sure where all these 'good guys with guns' are?

[the ikara cult]

Its a process of elimination Jon Boy, we've just got to wait for all the irresponsible ones to get shot or sent to prison, then everyone will be safe.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by jon boy

not sure where all these 'good guys with guns' are?

 

[!@#$%!]

http://marquettetribune.org/2012/02/...es-study-says/

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 

We're talking about taking certain kinds of weapons, Lord Jesus why is that such a big fucking deal? The NRA dude wouldn't even concede to universal background checks without private sale loopholes yesterday at the Senate committee. When Rep. Gabby Giffords spoke, I must confess, I literally teared up and fell back to my seat. It moved me beyond words. I must be getting old. Do I believe in American politics? No. Do I trust the government? Of course not. Do I believe in the sincerity of the content of the words of Rep. Giffords? To the core and depth of my being.

We will be bold. We will be courageous. Our communities are counting on this. A teenage girl was shot and killed over bullshit this weekend, she was just one of many. Gun folks sure have all the guns they want but man the rest of us, its like my man Tupac said, "Word it seems like all we got is tear drops and closed caskets."

[!@#$%!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSxa...e&noredirect=1

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

"Word it seems like all we got is tear drops and closed caskets."

 

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 

 

Yes, but murder is a task which is amplified with certain tools of destruction. Limit access to those tools to bad folks, and the opportunities for evil are diminished. That is what universal background checks do. It means that nobody can buy a gun on the down-low, in secret, or for illegitimate purposes. Will it work 100%? Of course not. But quite literally, EVERY SINGLE GUN WHICH IS PREVENTED FROM REACHING THE STREET CAN SAVE A LIFE, PERIOD. Bytor, as a Christian I implore you, seriously, think with your heart and not your ideologies! We need to find some compromise as a community. I will be perfectly honest, guns make me nervous. To make me more comfortable, couldn't we agree that y'all can have some guns, but not all the guns all the time?

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 

that's a fair and reasoned argument.

[Trama]

Some really idiotic arguments ITT, hopefully you are joking, bytor.

I'm for the individual right of gun possession, but the access and namely the calibers and typology should be regulated. It is a way of protecting gun owners themselves.

There are other ways to grant people access to military grade weapons. Private possession of said weapons is not the best option imo.

Also, I think society should strive to make them less necessary, not the other way.

[Rob Instigator]

No one has access to military grade weapons people, except for Ted Nugent.