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Old 01.28.2013, 10:50 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesla69
your numbers actually argue the opposite - when there were x+4 million handguns available, the national homicide rate was 40K, but when the number of handguns increased to x+6 million, the rate went down to 11K. Your numbers show when there are more handguns there are less murders.

Now, I'm just playing games here, because usually the economy is used to explain why murder rates went down.

See, I'm skeptical because police chiefs in San Diego are not liberals-they want to cripple the american people
"Chief Lansdowne, who plays an active role in the western region of the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) association, said it may take a generation but guns will eventually be taken off the streets through new laws like Senator Diane Feinstein's proposed assault weapons ban legislation. Some of the items his organization is addressing include; a ban on assault weapons, restricting high-capacity magazines, closing loopholes that allow firearm sales between private owners without background checks, and implementing much stricter background checks by using a comprehensive database."

I see what you did there, and its bullshit. Had the sale rates stayed at 1980s levels there would have been TWO MILLION MORE GUNS on the streets in the 2000s than were sold, period. That is TWO MILLION less guns than were sold in the 1980s. Further, h8kurt has already concurred with my statements.

1992 was the beginning of stricter hand gun regulations in DC, New York, and California. Low and behold after 20 years of gun control in those states what have we found?

Quote:
Originally Posted by h8kurdt
And if you're gonna start throwing statistics around then here's a couple.

"The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 homicides in the United States in 2010, including non-negligent manslaughter."

Two-fold reduction is a bit less than California's sixfold reduction, but the national figures speak for themselves. Gun advocates are simply delusional to the reality of the past twenty years, and it is starting to get embarrassing. What I find interesting the most, is that people who have ACTUALLY experienced gun violence tend to be more realistic about guns, and folks who are simply living a fantasy/fear based life tend to have the most guns and those pussies never even have a reason or need to use them
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Old 01.31.2013, 05:00 PM   #162
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and another one, a day after someone went nuts with a gun in an office block: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21286571

not sure where all these 'good guys with guns' are?
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Old 01.31.2013, 05:33 PM   #163
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Its a process of elimination Jon Boy, we've just got to wait for all the irresponsible ones to get shot or sent to prison, then everyone will be safe.
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Old 01.31.2013, 07:37 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon boy
not sure where all these 'good guys with guns' are?

 
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Old 01.31.2013, 07:43 PM   #165
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Old 01.31.2013, 09:36 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 

We're talking about taking certain kinds of weapons, Lord Jesus why is that such a big fucking deal? The NRA dude wouldn't even concede to universal background checks without private sale loopholes yesterday at the Senate committee. When Rep. Gabby Giffords spoke, I must confess, I literally teared up and fell back to my seat. It moved me beyond words. I must be getting old. Do I believe in American politics? No. Do I trust the government? Of course not. Do I believe in the sincerity of the content of the words of Rep. Giffords? To the core and depth of my being.

We will be bold. We will be courageous. Our communities are counting on this. A teenage girl was shot and killed over bullshit this weekend, she was just one of many. Gun folks sure have all the guns they want but man the rest of us, its like my man Tupac said, "Word it seems like all we got is tear drops and closed caskets."
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Old 01.31.2013, 10:00 PM   #167
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Old 01.31.2013, 10:13 PM   #168
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Old 01.31.2013, 10:35 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

 



 

Yes, but murder is a task which is amplified with certain tools of destruction. Limit access to those tools to bad folks, and the opportunities for evil are diminished. That is what universal background checks do. It means that nobody can buy a gun on the down-low, in secret, or for illegitimate purposes. Will it work 100%? Of course not. But quite literally, EVERY SINGLE GUN WHICH IS PREVENTED FROM REACHING THE STREET CAN SAVE A LIFE, PERIOD. Bytor, as a Christian I implore you, seriously, think with your heart and not your ideologies! We need to find some compromise as a community. I will be perfectly honest, guns make me nervous. To make me more comfortable, couldn't we agree that y'all can have some guns, but not all the guns all the time?
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Old 01.31.2013, 11:29 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor
 

that's a fair and reasoned argument.
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Old 02.01.2013, 08:41 AM   #171
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Some really idiotic arguments ITT, hopefully you are joking, bytor.

I'm for the individual right of gun possession, but the access and namely the calibers and typology should be regulated. It is a way of protecting gun owners themselves.

There are other ways to grant people access to military grade weapons. Private possession of said weapons is not the best option imo.

Also, I think society should strive to make them less necessary, not the other way.
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Old 02.01.2013, 09:15 AM   #172
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No one has access to military grade weapons people, except for Ted Nugent.
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Old 02.01.2013, 09:19 AM   #173
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What about the dude from FPS Russia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSp7CipN1pw

so jelly
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Old 02.01.2013, 09:56 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trama
I'm for the individual right of gun possession, but the access and namely the calibers and typology should be regulated. It is a way of protecting gun owners themselves.

calibers are already regulated. anything above .50 caliber is considered a destructive device and illegal outside of military use.

typology: automatic weapons (machine guns) are NOT accessible to the public. they are not illegal strictly speaking, but they are so highly regulated and expensive to own, people can't go into a store and walk away with one.

any and all weapons are/have been "military" at some point, including the measly .22LR which can make for an effective sniper rifle. look, ma! i have a sniper rifle!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trama
There other ways to grant people access to military grade weapons. Private possession of said weapons is not the best option imo.

a so-called "assault rifle" is simply a semiautomatic rifle like the kind people use for hunting. semi-auto loading is a 100-year-old technology. it is NOT a machine-gun. it is one trigger-pull per bullet, just like a revolver.

look at this video-- a bit old but pretty excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

the "nato" caliber is actually less powerful and has less recoil and has a smaller round than the extensively popular .30-06 used by deer hunters-- which is why it's good for home defense-- it is more controllable, and has less penetration when it hits a wall (less even than many handguns).

one person's "assault rifle" is another person's "home defense carbine"-- easy to aim, easy to handle in close quarters, endowed with sufficient stopping power, and safer than a hunting rifle or a shotgun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trama
Also, I think society should strive to make them less necessary, not the other way.

this-- yes. everyone, including gun owners, agrees with that.
but this is exactly the problem-- banning guns for their looks or made-up names or magazine sizes does not make guns less necessary.
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Old 02.01.2013, 10:00 AM   #175
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especially when nearly 80% of gun deaths result from handguns/pistols NOT machine guns, or "assault" rifles.
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Old 02.01.2013, 12:25 PM   #176
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!@#$%!

I understand that, and I'm sure there's a fair amount of mislabeling in the media.

High-capacity detachable magazines, would you consider that a military style feature or do you not?

Certainly you agree that they play a difference in the event of a mass shooting?
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Old 02.01.2013, 12:39 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
calibers are already regulated. anything above .50 caliber is considered a destructive device and illegal outside of military use.

typology: automatic weapons (machine guns) are NOT accessible to the public. they are not illegal strictly speaking, but they are so highly regulated and expensive to own, people can't go into a store and walk away with one.

any and all weapons are/have been "military" at some point, including the measly .22LR which can make for an effective sniper rifle. look, ma! i have a sniper rifle!


a so-called "assault rifle" is simply a semiautomatic rifle like the kind people use for hunting. semi-auto loading is a 100-year-old technology. it is NOT a machine-gun. it is one trigger-pull per bullet, just like a revolver.

look at this video-- a bit old but pretty excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

the "nato" caliber is actually less powerful and has less recoil and has a smaller round than the extensively popular .30-06 used by deer hunters-- which is why it's good for home defense-- it is more controllable, and has less penetration when it hits a wall (less even than many handguns).

one person's "assault rifle" is another person's "home defense carbine"-- easy to aim, easy to handle in close quarters, endowed with sufficient stopping power, and safer than a hunting rifle or a shotgun.


this-- yes. everyone, including gun owners, agrees with that.
but this is exactly the problem-- banning guns for their looks or made-up names or magazine sizes does not make guns less necessary.

Bullshit. Assault-style weapons such as the Bushmaster and other carbine rifles can be readily modified with a few simple parts to go full auto. Where do you think gangsters in Chi-town or South Central get these things? By the way, the assault weapons ban worked. Machine gun and high-caliber riffle consfications by law enforcement as well as crimes committed by all declined every year here in California after 1994. Further, out state-wide bans on copy-cat rifles like the SKS also worked miracles. When I was a kid, you'd hear of machine gun killings at least monthly. Its a rarity these days that stands out noticeably.

Further, is it some kind of coincidence that the majority of mass shootings, workplace shootings, and random killings have involved the Bushmaster, a rifle which was previously banned from 1994-2004? No. Since 2005 the number of shootings with these rifles has sky-rocketed. Clearly the ban was working.

There is no place in hunting for weapons designed for combat. Just because they are slightly modified for public use, doesn't negate the reality that such weapons are not designed for personal defense, but forward combat operations.

I support banning these weapons, banning extended magazines, banning such high-power ammunition, and of course ending ALL background check loopholes. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country. Why does it still have one of the highest gun crime rates? Because Michigan, Wisconsin, and even Illinois in general have lax laws in comparison, and guns flood into town. Here in LA we have a similar problem with Nevada and Arizona, but the sheer size and scale of California geography helps curb the effect some, plus California's own state-wide laws are fairly strong and strongly enforced.
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Old 02.01.2013, 12:56 PM   #178
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!@#$%!

I understand that, and I'm sure there's a fair amount of mislabeling in the media, I'm not defending them.

High-capacity detachable magazines, would you consider that a military style feature or do you not?

Certainly you agree that they play a difference in the event of a mass shooting?

using a 30-round magazine (potentially illegal) is not much different than using three 10-round magazines (unaffected by the proposed law) though it confers an advantage in a gunfight-- e.g. 3 armed intruders vs. you, it's the difference between 3 or 10 bullets for each intruder before you take a second or two to swap magazines.

i just googled "home invasion" and this came at top-- "trio suspected..." etc. i had just made up the number 3 but there you go.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-cou...nvasion-appear

these fuckers act in groups.

the mass shootings from the news aren't gunfights though-- and therefore the size of the magazine makes little difference there. these victims are generally unarmed people in "gun free zones" so changing magazines makes little difference because nobody can return fire to the shooter. it's like they say "shooting fish in a barrel".

which is why i think this is a waste of time and political capital from the democrats-- i voted for them and supported them with work and money, but i heard nothing about guns in the campaign.

10 rounds, 30 rounds, molotov cocktails, fertilizer trucks-- killers will kill with whatever they can.

i'd much rather we were focusing on rebuilding infrastructure and improving education and health care, which have a much greater chance to reduce social violence than randomly slapping at the symptoms with hysterical reactions.

now, i do agree 100% with universal background checks and penalizing straw purchases (that's when you buy a gun for someone who can't buy it themselves), and i'm for mandatory safety training even though people say "a right shouldn't be licensed" & so forth (still, felons are deprived from the right to vote in many states, and there are limits to free speech, etc).

ultimately gun control is about risk/reward for the individual and for society. and some times what's good for the individual is not good for society and viceversa, but the thing is that, in the u.s., minority and individual rights are traditionally more respected vs. society at large-- other countries have a tradition of more centralized control which is why people are more willing to accept government control, etc. plus there is a long tradition of guns that goes back to the first settlers (whereas in europe only nobles were allowed to carry weapons).

additionally, the media overlooks the benefit, and only looks at the cost, and it's hard to get real actionable data. nobody reports on "5 rapes and 12 robberies prevented by guns today" because it doesn't get high ratings on tv.

edit: but look at this for example: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-says-yes.html (she's against home defense carbines though)

the reason i have come around to this side of the issue (i used to be heavily anti-gun) is because in this debate, when you remove the hysteria and paranoia on both sides (both sides have their fools and lunatics), the pro-gun people have made better rational arguments to me than the anti-gun people.
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Old 02.01.2013, 01:17 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
Where do you think gangsters in Chi-town or South Central get these things?
aren't there already 1000 laws banning what these gangsters do in the first place?

the law only restrains law-abiding people.
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Old 02.01.2013, 01:42 PM   #180
Trama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
the mass shootings from the news aren't gunfights though-- and therefore the size of the magazine makes little difference there. these victims are generally unarmed people in "gun free zones" so changing magazines makes little difference because nobody can return fire to the shooter.
I disagree with that. Armed or not it creates a chance to attack the shooter.
Wasn't that how they stopped Giffords' shooter?

And I'm with you, I'm for individual freedom, but I think in this case (due to the sheer weight of the problem in the US) some compromise has to be made.

Of course gun legislation is only part of the problem, and as an outsider I do see that there's a lot noise surrounding this debate, certainly working in the interest of some.

One curious thing about the media is how you often hear them criticizing the videogame industry, but you never hear a word about Hollywood.
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