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Old 01.23.2013, 09:02 AM   #141
SuchFriendsAreDangerous
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Old 01.23.2013, 09:56 AM   #142
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Old 01.23.2013, 10:11 AM   #143
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Do not forget they are all in it together. They are all millionaires looking to maintain the status quo.
Preznit Bush started the whole massive debt by beginning two wars, funded at the rate of billions a week, that have lasted well over a decade now.
The same people making money off of the war are still making billions, and they all have a much bigger piece of any president's ear than the 40+ million living in poverty.
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Old 01.23.2013, 10:26 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Do not forget they are all in it together. They are all millionaires looking to maintain the status quo.
Preznit Bush started the whole massive debt by beginning two wars, funded at the rate of billions a week, that have lasted well over a decade now.
The same people making money off of the war are still making billions, and they all have a much bigger piece of any president's ear than the 40+ million living in poverty.

So true, Rob.

When running for election the first time, I feel it was foolish for Obama to campaign on bringing the troops home. Like many Americans, I was ready to see many of them come home. However, what we citizens nor Obama at that time knew was there were / still are many necessities having our military people in places they now occupy.

Once Obama became President and received a full briefing on how all the dots were connected, it became obvious to him at that time in no way could he just remove everyone. YES - some of the dots are connected to companies making millions of dollars, but it's unreasonable to think it's the ONLY REASON Bush kept our soldiers over there.

For the five trillion Obama has added to the deficit over the past four years, we could fund occupations for the remainder of our lifetime.
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Old 01.23.2013, 10:38 AM   #145
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Keeping a force in afghanistan equivalent to the one in South Korea is fine and dandy. what happens is that the USA has spent nearly half of the money on these wars in hiring out mercenary/"private security" firms. No one makes money when the army is sent somewhere, only in purchasing equipment for them, but sending a private mercenary company over makes a lot of money for those that own such operations. and that is government money, given with no accountability, no questions asked, and a private mercenary does not have to follow rules of war that a soldier has to. it skirts around the law very nicely.
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Old 01.23.2013, 10:57 AM   #146
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I've been offerred to go shoot off an AR15, and I believe I might. God knows when I'll ever see one again...
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Old 01.23.2013, 12:56 PM   #147
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KTLA-TV reported on Wednesday that the Fontana Unified School District bought 14 Colt 6940 rifles at $1,000 apiece to store on campuses around the district. The semi-automatic weapons are used by both law enforcement and U.S. Special Forces.
The purchase was approved by district Superintendent Cali Olsen-Binks last October. According to the Fontana Herald News, school officers received the weapons last month and received 40 hours of training over the winter break to learn how to use them.
Officials said the rifles will be stored in a safe on their respective campuses and will only be used to respond to attacks like the one on Sandy Hook Elementary in Connecticut last month.
“We know that criminals wear bullet proof vests,” School Police Chief Billy Green told the newspaper. “Our guns are not able to penetrate these vests from long distance, so we need shoulder weapons to defend innocent people. This is a decision I made and I have no regrets.”

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Old 01.23.2013, 07:43 PM   #148
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Old 01.23.2013, 09:08 PM   #149
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Now, look who needs to grow up.

Dudes, y'all gun folks are not compromising. Nothing in the Second Amendment says that Americans have the right to bear ANY, EVERY, and ALL kinds of arms. So we have flesh out the details and interpret the law appropriately. We American people largely support regulating firearms. Nobody is talking about banning ALL firearms, but even a small child can understand why prohibiting uber-dangerous military style weapons is a reasonable compromise. Gun owners can still have access to many firearms, just not those which are only designed to harm as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

Further, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH 100% BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR ALL PURCHASES?

These are reasonable compromises where Americans can still express their Second Amendment rights while the rest of us Americans who prefer not can equally feel safe and secure in our neighborhoods and communities. That is the mutual compromise, those of us who feel unsafe around firearms have the right to push for control, licensing, and regulation in the name of public safety, and those who want to express their rights and own firearms accept some regulation and restriction. How is that not simple?

What is funny is y'all accuse us of not listening to y'all, and yet we are listening, and we are supporting gun ownership (albeit under restrictions), it is y'all who are not listening to our concerns
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:14 PM   #150
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I think every citizen should be required to learn how to properly care for and handle and fire a firearm. I personally do not own one, and have reservations about allowing it in my house (I ask my friends with Concealed handgun licenses to please leave their handguns in their cars,a nd they willingly do so.)
but I would kill and be killed for your right to own one.

I believe in states rights. Each community needs to dictate what is right for them. federal drug laws are all jacked up, and so will federal gun regulations.

criminals do not, by definition, give a flying fuck about the law, and will find ways to get assault rifles and other high ordinance whether or not the law abiding citizens are allowed to have such things.

Most gun owners are very responsible. Most drivers are very responsible. A certain amount of risk comes with being alive, and with all things in life.
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:20 PM   #151
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BTW, some of the most well-armed and trained gun owners in America are descendants and family of Jews who survived or escaped the Nazi Holocaust. They did not have guns when Hitlers assholes came for them, because Hitler mandated the general populace be disarmed.

This is not a bullshit scare tactic by those who bring it up. It is historical evidence.

Everyone brings up the lack of guns in Japan, but that has not stopped the HIGH rates of suicide, or violent crime by Yakuza or other criminals. Everyone mentions the UK, but FUCK THAT SHIT. They are slowly becoming a totalitarian state, where everyone is filmed everywhere they go, where you have to pay and get a license to watch television, where only the government and their stooges have weapons.

The violent crime rate in the UK is HUGE

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour. . . .
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
  • The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
  • It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
  • The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
  • It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France. . . .
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. . . .
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:25 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
I think every citizen should be required to learn how to properly care for and handle and fire a firearm. I personally do not own one, and have reservations about allowing it in my house (I ask my friends with Concealed handgun licenses to please leave their handguns in their cars,a nd they willingly do so.)
but I would kill and be killed for your right to own one.

I believe in states rights. Each community needs to dictate what is right for them. federal drug laws are all jacked up, and so will federal gun regulations.

criminals do not, by definition, give a flying fuck about the law, and will find ways to get assault rifles and other high ordinance whether or not the law abiding citizens are allowed to have such things.

Most gun owners are very responsible. Most drivers are very responsible. A certain amount of risk comes with being alive, and with all things in life.

Rob, this is an endlessly circular argument. Criminals get their weapons FROM THE EXACT SAME PLACE THAT HONEST PEOPLE GET THEM, the gun manufacturers. If the gun manufacturers STOP producing and SELLING these kinds of weapons in America, then Americans criminal, legit, or otherwise will gradually lose access. We have to stop the flow sometime, we can't always just throw up our hands and let criminals dictate the roles and rules of our society. Further I can vouch from tangible experience, that assault rifle bans worked in California, in the 1990s gangsters had common access to assault rifles, people getting shot by high volume rifles was a weekly occurrence. The LAPD and Sheriff reported annually large numbers of confiscation by apprehended criminals carrying dangerous riffles, submachine guns and of course dangerous high-velocity ammunition. SINCE California by STATE law banned ALL these weapons and munitions, both the hood news on the streetcorner and the data by the police agencies all affirm and conclude that criminals now have dramatically LESS access to assault rifles and high-velocity ammunition. See how that works? Once we get over the entire fear-mongering aspects, we can look at the data, and see that regulation has measurable results!!


Further, NOBODY HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION. WHAT THE FUCK IS SO WRONG WITH UNIVERSAL, 100% BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR ALL FIREARM PURCHASES IN AMERICA AND ALL 50 STATES?
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:33 PM   #153
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I thought they already had universal background checks? at least at actual gun stores. It is not illegal to sell your friend a firearm though, and there is no background checks on that

I am fine for control of assault weapons, but ex-soldiers should be allowed to own them, because they have been trained in their use.

You have noticed though that LA police have not stopped using their body armor, their high caliber assault rifles, tanks, etc.? And that nearly every mid to large size police force in the country has enacted the same exact measures, regardless of whether they actually need to?

The police forces are becoming more and more highly militarized, as the populace is becoming less capable of arming themselves.
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:40 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
I thought they already had universal background checks? at least at actual gun stores. It is not illegal to sell your friend a firearm though, and there is no background checks on that
No. What is actually frightening is that upwards of FORTY PERCENT of all firearms purchases are not background checked because of private sale loopholes and gunshows. We need to tighten and strengthen those laws to make it fair for all gun owners, some gun owners should not be exempted from laws which other gun owners have to follow

Quote:

You have noticed though that LA police have not stopped using their body armor, their high caliber assault rifles, tanks, etc.? And that nearly every mid to large size police force in the country has enacted the same exact measures, regardless of whether they actually need to?


That is some psychological warfare. They were that shit to (a) pump up their own bravado and (b) scare the community into thinking things are still as dangerous as they were in 1992, they're not. The numbers don't lie our murder rate is down 600% over the past 20 years, and assault rifles and high-velocity ammunition is also in significant decline. Again, criminals get it from the same place legit people do, if legit people have less or no access to these weapons and munitions, criminals are equally in the long arc cut off.

Quote:

The police forces are becoming more and more highly militarized, as the populace is becoming less capable of arming themselves.

Yes, but that is not because crime in increasing, it because the law is taking our kindness for weakness. You are conflating two completely separate issues. One of the increasing militarization of law enforcement and another of decrease or increase in crime. One is not always correlated with the other.

I reiterate.

The compromise is fair. 100% background checks with NO loopholes, period. Ammunition restrictions to limit the access of criminals. Bans on uber-dangerous assault weapons which serve no legitimate purpose. I don't even want decommissioned PTSD recovering jarheads (if they want these weapons, stay in the service yo) having these things in their homes to scare the shit out of their wives
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Old 01.25.2013, 02:48 PM   #155
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criminals get their guns in many ways, stealing them from gun owners is a HUGE one. The people manufacturing the guns, and ammunition, are the ones behind the NRA, not actual gun owners.
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Old 01.25.2013, 03:36 PM   #156
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criminals get their guns in many ways, stealing them from gun owners is a HUGE one. The people manufacturing the guns, and ammunition, are the ones behind the NRA, not actual gun owners.

Thank you, as long as we can concede that point, we are mutually agreeing to the founding premise of gun-control in the first place. The premise of gun-control is not to punish lawful gun owners, rather the accept the statistical reality that guns universally come from one place, gun manufacturers. How do gun manufacturers distribute their products? Retailers. Less retailers = less guns by volume. Less guns by volume = naturally less access to guns by criminals. Criminals steal them from retailers, owners, and warehouses/storage facilities. If you simply have less guns around, you have less opportunities for criminals to get them. The more guns that exist, the more statistically likely it is that criminals will have them.

Between 1980-1990 there were about 4 MILLION HANDGUNS alone sold in America, a 200% increase from the previous decades. What was the homicide rate in 1992? Over 3,000 in Los Angeles alone, some 40,000 nationally.. From 1999-2010 there were less than 2 MILLION Handguns sold because of state and national restrictions. What was the murder rate in 2011? Less than 600 in Los Angeles and only 11,078 fire-arm related homicides. Numbers don't lie y'all.. Less guns equals less murders, period

 
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Old 01.25.2013, 04:48 PM   #157
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Comparing U.S. Gun Violence With The Rest Of The World: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/schoo-shooting-how-do-u-s-gun-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/



 
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Old 01.26.2013, 07:59 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
BTW, some of the most well-armed and trained gun owners in America are descendants and family of Jews who survived or escaped the Nazi Holocaust. They did not have guns when Hitlers assholes came for them, because Hitler mandated the general populace be disarmed.

This is not a bullshit scare tactic by those who bring it up. It is historical evidence.

Everyone brings up the lack of guns in Japan, but that has not stopped the HIGH rates of suicide, or violent crime by Yakuza or other criminals. Everyone mentions the UK, but FUCK THAT SHIT. They are slowly becoming a totalitarian state, where everyone is filmed everywhere they go, where you have to pay and get a license to watch television, where only the government and their stooges have weapons.

The violent crime rate in the UK is HUGE

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour. . . .
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
  • The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
  • It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
  • The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
  • It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France. . . .
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. . . .


And having more guns on the street would bring it down? Get a grip.
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Old 01.26.2013, 08:11 AM   #159
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And if you're gonna start throwing statistics around then here's a couple.

"The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 homicides in the United States in 2010, including non-negligent manslaughter."

And I don't know where you got your stats from but from the http://www.unodc.org/

The UK's homocide rate is 1.4 actually lower than France which is 1.6.
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Old 01.28.2013, 04:29 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
Between 1980-1990 there were about 4 MILLION HANDGUNS alone sold in America, a 200% increase from the previous decades. What was the homicide rate in 1992? Over 3,000 in Los Angeles alone, some 40,000 nationally.. From 1999-2010 there were less than 2 MILLION Handguns sold because of state and national restrictions. What was the murder rate in 2011? Less than 600 in Los Angeles and only 11,078 fire-arm related homicides.

your numbers actually argue the opposite - when there were x+4 million handguns available, the national homicide rate was 40K, but when the number of handguns increased to x+6 million, the rate went down to 11K. Your numbers show when there are more handguns there are less murders.

Now, I'm just playing games here, because usually the economy is used to explain why murder rates went down.

See, I'm skeptical because police chiefs in San Diego are not liberals-they want to cripple the american people
"Chief Lansdowne, who plays an active role in the western region of the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) association, said it may take a generation but guns will eventually be taken off the streets through new laws like Senator Diane Feinstein's proposed assault weapons ban legislation. Some of the items his organization is addressing include; a ban on assault weapons, restricting high-capacity magazines, closing loopholes that allow firearm sales between private owners without background checks, and implementing much stricter background checks by using a comprehensive database."
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