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Old 02.27.2013, 04:05 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
The Courts have sided with the 2nd amendment time and time again.

Jim Crow laws were not part of the Constitution,a nd when challenged, were found to be unconstitutional.

the fact remains that we are all living in the safest time that has ever existed for a human to live in history. The horrors we hear about have always been there, and were actually far far worse in the past. we just hear about it more because of the interconnectedness of the information sources we have.

to use any one horrid act to control the innocent masses is reprehensible in teh extreme, but it is what tyrants do.


Can we have a discussion which DOESN'T lead to hyperbole and emotional exaggeration? Tyranny over the innocent masses? Hardly. A great deal of Americans SUPPORT gun restrictions, so who is tyrannizing whom exactly?


You misunderstand me. The Courts DEFINE specifically what the Second Amendment means, they interpret WHICH kinds of arms are legally permissible and in which circumstances. The Amendment does NOT read "any, every, and all kinds of arms" it just reads "arms" which then is up to the Courts to interpret. Federal Courts have supported federal, state, county, and municipal gun regulations and restrictions since literally the 18th century!! Further, Jim Crow was the result of the "separate but equal" interpretation of the Constitution, and "vagrancy laws" were specifically adapted around the 13th Amendment loophole which allows for slavery in the instance of incarceration. Vagrancy laws incarcerated black folks in order to force them into forced labor through the outsourcing of the prison system. You live in Texas, you should know this history, Texas was the second largest user of "convict labor" behind only Mississippi. Today, the reality that upwards of 1 in 3 black men is currently incarcerated is a DIRECT legacy of the vagrancy laws which were in full effect even until the 1960s
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:13 PM   #302
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I would die to defend your, and our, right to own a gun bro. Just sayin'. I think most so-called "gun nuts" would do the same.

and remember I do not own a gun, but I will defend your right to own one should the need arise.

This argument is not about nuts though. It is about regular normal, healthy people who, because of the actions of mentally ill, or violent assholes, are being slowly relieved of their civil liberties, as specified in our nation's constitution.
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:16 PM   #303
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BTW, a lot of the "Jim Crow" laws were also used to keep freed slaves from owning guns, because a man who cannot defend himself, is not FREE
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:21 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
I would die to defend your, and our, right to own a gun bro. Just sayin'. I think most so-called "gun nuts" would do the same.

and remember I do not own a gun, but I will defend your right to own one should the need arise.

This argument is not about nuts though. It is about regular normal, healthy people who, because of the actions of mentally ill, or violent assholes, are being slowly relieved of their civil liberties, as specified in our nation's constitution.

Dude, I am not suggesting to repeal the Amendment entirely, after all, you can't exactly put 3 BILLION guns back into Pandora's Box can you? What is being debated and suggested in our national dialogue is the concept of more specifically interpreting the Second Amendment, what exactly the term "bear arms" implies. The premise behind gun control and restriction, is that the Second Amendment did not intend a carte-blanche. The Constitution is not self-revealing Gospel truths, it didn't arrive by the Holy Spirit, it is interpreted and enacted by the Federal government which is defined by the Constitution and yet dually is solely empowered to enact and interpret it as well. Plus and again, considering the history of hypocrisy, double-standards, codified racism, and other gross inequities and iniquities, couldn't we agree that the Constitution isn't exactly the most trust-worthy of documents? Our American history has as many examples of the Constitution being used to ENSLAVE, DISENFRANCHISE, and even KILL other Americans as much as it supposedly defends the rights of Americans. Currently the President has an unapologetic "hit-list" of Americans which can be summarily executed minus any kind of due-process, which all the Constitutional lawyers seem to assure is us perfectly legal.

Me, I don't think its worth the paper to wipe my fucking ass with, but if you feel so strongly you'd die for it, at the least, make sure you are quite clear as to which time period and interpretation, because the enactment of the Constitution is not static, it is a process.
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:32 PM   #305
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all those things are true, and all those things have been corrected. The framers of the constitution knew what they were doing. they set it up so that changing it is a slow, time consuming process, to fight against irrational, emotional judgements and not-thought-out changes to it.
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:38 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
all those things are true, and all those things have been corrected. The framers of the constitution knew what they were doing. they set it up so that changing it is a slow, time consuming process, to fight against irrational, emotional judgements and not-thought-out changes to it.

Rob, you lost me there. The "Framers" of the Constitution thought that slavery for all black folks and genocidal mass murder for all indians was also perfectly reasonable. That being said, I hardly trust their judgement. I like how you are tying to call me irrational and emotional, when YOU and !@#$%! are relying on fear-mongering, not the reality of history or statistical data. Interesting there. Believe me, I ain't mad at you, we are just having a discussion, but it is beginning to border on disingenuous bickering over hyperbole. I am not suggesting eliminated ALL guns, just those which pose the biggest threats with the least need. I keep getting surprised that none of the gun proponents seem ever willing to compromise with their fellow compatriots. That is sad. We are compromising with gun supporters, why are they so selfishly obstinate? Lord have His mercy
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:49 PM   #307
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slavery was a condition of much of humanity, not just black folk, back when the constitution was written, and believe me, you need to do some research because the fight to ban slavery in the constitution was long and heavily contentious. The main reason it did not go through is that the main source of money for the colonies was the cotton being sold from the colonies in the South.

You may not be talking about banning all guns my friend, but the people behind the push for this truly are. Remember, trust no one, especially those who say they come to protect you.

on the subject of civil liberties there should never be any compromise. That is why I hate and decry shit like the Patriot Act, no-fly lists, etc, just like I decry people who want to disarm law abiding people.
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:54 PM   #308
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what gets me is how people claim "there is no reason" for a regular citizen to have a machine gun, or a powerful gun. Who are they to make that determination?
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Old 02.27.2013, 04:59 PM   #309
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suchfriends -- you say somewhere above that i'm fear-mongering, but in my experience cops are never around when you need them. what's your experience with the cops?
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:03 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
slavery was a condition of much of humanity, not just black folk, back when the constitution was written, and believe me, you need to do some research because the fight to ban slavery in the constitution was long and heavily contentious. The main reason it did not go through is that the main source of money for the colonies was the cotton being sold from the colonies in the South.

You may not be talking about banning all guns my friend, but the people behind the push for this truly are. Remember, trust no one, especially those who say they come to protect you.

on the subject of civil liberties there should never be any compromise. That is why I hate and decry shit like the Patriot Act, no-fly lists, etc, just like I decry people who want to disarm law abiding people.

No. By the time of the drafting of the Constitution ONLY black peoples were enslaved in the Americas. In fact, some Indian communities even owned black slaves too! However, we digress into an entirely different tangent here. I only brought up slavery to point out the historical hypocrisy and unreliability of the Constitution. I agree I don't trust ANYONE, which is particularly why I don't trust my fellow Americans with dangerous weapons. If I have to compromise and accept some weapons, they need to compromise and accept some restrictions. It must be a mutuality, and thus far, proponents have not accepted compromise which by default all Americans are currently accepting. Its simply not fair.
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:04 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
suchfriends -- you say i'm fear-mongering, but in my experience cops are never around when you need them. what's your experience with the cops?

terrible, but my experience with other armed Americans is as bad if not worse. Several of my folks have been shot, a few others are dead. Some were shot and killed by the police, but not the majority. Therefore at this point in my life, as begrudgingly as I don't want to admit this, I have to say I trust the police more by default, as they have killed and harmed less Americans through gun violence than Americans in general harm and kill each other
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:09 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
terrible, but my experience with other armed Americans is as bad if not worse. Several of my folks have been shot, a few others are dead. Some were shot and killed by the police, but not the majority. Therefore at this point in my life, as begrudgingly as I don't want to admit this, I have to say I trust the police more by default, as they have killed and harmed less Americans through gun violence than Americans in general harm and kill each other

sounds like you're sieged by criminals on both sides of the law, so let me ask-- if you or your family need defense or protection from your criminal neighbors-- what's your plan?
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:11 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
sounds like you're sieged by criminals on both sides of the law, so let me ask-- if you or your family need defense or protection from your criminal neighbors-- what's your plan?

From my direct and tangible experience, having a gun only exasperates the problem. Having a gun provokes the hostilities. I've owned and indeed been forced by circumstance to USE several guns. Nothing good came from it, period. I pray you never have to use those carbines you keep promoting, it will kill you inside after the smoke clears. Guns result in more people getting shot by default, where as in my life I am striving daily for less :/

Its not just criminals with guns I am concerned about, it is vigilantes and wanna-be heroes like Zimmerman who might just shoot me too one day walking in the dark. What, Americans have the right to own guns, but not to walk their own streets? Lord have His mercy
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:16 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
From my direct and tangible experience, having a gun only exasperates the problem. Having a gun provokes the hostilities.

are there any women in your household?

“We woke up and they were there standing in our bedroom and we gave them everything we had but it wasn’t enough,” said the woman. ”Then one of them took me out of the bedroom and he took a gun out and then he started to sexually assault me.”

The woman said that the suspect’s started to hit her husband and then she ran downstairs and that she ran out of the house screaming.
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:32 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
are there any women in your household?

“We woke up and they were there standing in our bedroom and we gave them everything we had but it wasn’t enough,” said the woman. ”Then one of them took me out of the bedroom and he took a gun out and then he started to sexually assault me.”

The woman said that the suspect’s started to hit her husband and then she ran downstairs and that she ran out of the house screaming.

Again, from my own tangible and direct experience, guns don't solve those problems. Further having actually USED a gun several times in my life to defend myself from assholes and to defend my families (including women and children) I pray you never have too. Its not as heroic as y'all are proposing

 
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:38 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
Again, from my own tangible and direct experience, guns don't solve those problems. Further having actually USED a gun several times in my life to defend myself from assholes and to defend my families (including women and children) I pray you never have too. Its not as heroic as y'all are proposing


 

nobody is saying here that we want to shoot anyone or that we want to be in a position where we have to shoot anyone, or even that we ever want to be in a position where we have to defend ourselves or the people we care about from harm.

but in the case that something horrible ever happened, you know it well, 911 is a joke, so what else can you do? defenselessness is not an option.

ps- i have a fire extinguisher at home and i'm not an arsonist and i also take every precaution so i don't have to use it.
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Old 02.27.2013, 05:59 PM   #317
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I've never been threatened my whole life. I've never been robbed. I've never had an issue with the police.

*knock on wood*

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Old 02.27.2013, 06:06 PM   #318
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I've never been threatened my whole life. I've never been robbed. I've never had an issue with the police.

*knock on wood*

feelsgoodman

oh shit yes it does. i'm jealous-- in a good, non ill-willing way.

ive been held at gunpoint by robbers, i've had my home burglarized, my brother had his vehicle carjacked (at gunpoint of course), a girl i know was recently beaten up badly on an attempted rape, two women i know used to have stalkers (one was sent to prison), an ex was mugged with a shotgun... shit, almost everyone i know has been a victim of crime at some point-- it's like buddha's mustard grain story almost!

violent continent, this one.

ps- globally, about 28% of women get raped btw.
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Old 02.27.2013, 06:43 PM   #319
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the only way to stop violence in any meaningful way is education and proper medical/mental/psychological care.

There is not a separate thing called "gun violence." that is tagline for media. there is just violence.

well i think there is such a thing as gun violence. would you rather be hit with a fist or a bullet from a magnum.

you make a semi reasoned comment on education then make a silly one about bathroom floors causing more deaths per year etc. i dont think you know what side your breads buttered on.

the idea that those trained should carry them is also flawed on many levels not least of which is why trianed killers should be allowed to carry assault weapons.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...kyle-shot-dead
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Sarcasm[A] is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing

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Old 02.28.2013, 10:49 AM   #320
Rob Instigator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trama
I've never been threatened my whole life. I've never been robbed. I've never had an issue with the police.

*knock on wood*

feelsgoodman

all that means is that it hasn't happened YET. Good luck!
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