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Old 12.03.2013, 06:16 PM   #1041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
Nature fucks up constantly, so why is it so hard to believe someone's hormone levels are off, or the connection between certain neurons are weak?

But yes, given this condition, one does develop destructive thought patterns. So even if the chemicals get all straightened out, one still needs a miracle worker to untangle the many brain knots that have developed.

And I think ingesting chemicals to correct nature's fuck-up counts as a way for a depressive to be kind to themselves.

i think it runs both ways in that the destructive thought patterns induce stress which induce the hormonal fuckup.

e.g.

A goes to his girlfriend's house and knocks off a nice vase which smashes onto the floor. A then remembers that his mother will always love him and says "ooops" and without incurring unhealthy guilt apologizes and offers to replace it. Girlfriend says "eh don't worry about it, it's just things" and they proceed to 69 until they faint from pleasure. Result: not depression.

B suffers similar mishap but then engages in inner dialogue such as I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SUCH A FUCKUP TO DO THIS, which reminds him of being kicked in the stomach by his drunken father, which reflects on the core of his being as a BORN LOSER WHO DESERVES TO DIE, followed by severe scolding and hysterics from girlfriend, who dumps him on the spot when she finds he doesn't have $1,000 to buy her a new vase, and finishes twisting the knife by revealing she let B's sworn enemy mount her anally and give her a dirty sanchez just last weekend. Result: depression and suicide.

the thing with the brain and the mind is that the mind is not a simple result of physical causation but an emergent system that feeds back into the body by triggering physical responses. chicken, egg, whatever. i'm not opposed to pharmaceuticals but in that case i'd rather take a good prescription than some medieval concoction, and then only until i no longer need it. at different times i've taken zoloft, paxil, wellbutrin and klonopin, always with close medical supervision and always side by side with therapy, and they've worked great but the cure in the end has always been cognitive-behavioral as they say.

meds are a GREAT crutch while you mend, but if you take them while continuing insane patterns you get crazies like adam lanza or a bunch of other killer suckas where the meds only fuel/enable the craziness. same thing happens with depression-- meds can prop you up but they won't cure toxic shame or ptsd from abuse. that requires therapy.

the depressed people i know who take meds without therapy are still depressed and probably sicker due to side effects. but there is more serious shit like bipolar and other heavy disorders that for all we know require lifetime meds-- but also therapy, support groups etc. meds without therapy are like a broken car that gets back to running but with no steering wheel.
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Old 12.03.2013, 08:49 PM   #1042
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By the way, I find it fascinating how depressives regard depression in general. Everyone's perceives it a little differently, which I guess makes sense. And it's interesting how depressives respond differently to different things. Jogging doesn't do squat for my mood, St. John's not your thing, Prozac makes so-and-so hurl twice a day. But you're spot on about the need for therapy. At night, don't we all dream of the perfect shrink?


I get the difference between A and B, but you didn't mention C, who is almost exactly like A EXCEPT: feels depressed about the situation anyway, despite all rational thought. The shards remind C of the fleetingness of everything, death. Anyway, before the vase broke, C was already feeling down. No reason. Just woke up with a sense of the futility of everything and it's been hard to shake off the feeling, despite really trying by thinking of various wonderful things. Doesn't help. The mood colors C's perception of the world, and C knows it's a deception, but C still can't see around it. C's been feeling this way for weeks. (As for the sex scene, hopefully C's lover is turned on by mopey souls.) Result: depression, but probably not suicide. Maybe, but probably not. No, just a depression that goes on and on and on, as if life was a Becket play.
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Old 12.04.2013, 12:25 AM   #1043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
By the way, I find it fascinating how depressives regard depression in general. Everyone's perceives it a little differently, which I guess makes sense. And it's interesting how depressives respond differently to different things. Jogging doesn't do squat for my mood, St. John's not your thing, Prozac makes so-and-so hurl twice a day. But you're spot on about the need for therapy. At night, don't we all dream of the perfect shrink?

If jogging hasn't done anything for your mood, your just not doing it right. You need to do be consistent. You can't think, "Oh, I feel depressed today so I am going to go jogging and it will all be better." No, that is not what we're saying. We're saying that consistent and rigorous physical exercise over the long term helps alleviate the symptoms of neurochemical depressive episodes. Its not an instant feel good thing, though it can be for some people who enjoy "runners' high" but without it as a committed lifestyle of good health, ones' shouldn't expect their depression to subside on its own. It won't. The human body is meant to be active, to work its ass off, and when its stagnated, particularly by modern and sedentary lifestyles all kinds of problem develop or get worsened by such poor health habits. I promise you, if you commit to exercise and good eating, for several months, depression will get better. Its a biological fact! Will it go away completely? Of course not, like !@#$%! said, there are deeper psychological and cognitive aspects to depression, its not just neurochemistry. You have be double faceted in your approach, both bodily and mentally, both eating right, possibly taking herbs/meds, and definitely having some cognitive therapy.


Quote:
I get the difference between A and B, but you didn't mention C, Anyway, before the vase broke, C was already feeling down. No reason. Just woke up with a sense of the futility of everything and it's been hard to shake off the feeling, despite really trying by thinking of various wonderful things.

There are people like this, true, and indeed EVERYBODY "wakes up on the wrong side of the bed" from time to time, but for those folks with more serious symptoms of depression, there is always some underlying psychology and often neurosis involved, and these need to be worked out cognitively, not medically.

Quote:
No, just a depression that goes on and on and on, as if life was a Becket play.

Folks in this situation have two, and only two options. Either (a) get healthy through diet/medicine/cognitive therapy in the long term sense to help alleviate their symptoms or (b) suffer needlessly and endlessly for the rest of their biological lives. There is no third option, you either deal with your symptoms or you live with them, but there really is no in between. The limbo comes from folks who half-step between the two options, and you can't ride the fence, it will only poke your ass on the spikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!


the thing with the brain and the mind is that the mind is not a simple result of physical causation but an emergent system that feeds back into the body by triggering physical responses. chicken, egg, whatever. i'm not opposed to pharmaceuticals but in that case i'd rather take a good prescription than some medieval concoction, and then only until i no longer need it. at different times i've taken zoloft, paxil, wellbutrin and klonopin, always with close medical supervision and always side by side with therapy, and they've worked great but the cure in the end has always been cognitive-behavioral as they say.

Here is the catch, for say, people with bi-polar who regularly swing into depressive episodes as severe as any other "depressed" people or for those people who are not merely suffering from a caused depression such as grief, but those people who have the symptoms of severe depression with no apparent grievances, these take meds, but there is no "stop point." The meds don't really "work" in the permanent sense, they can temporarily alleviate the symptoms, but the neurochemical depression will continue on its own cycles. People will be locked into these meds, mostly because its the nature of our "medical system." Doctors don't trust their "patients/clients (in psychiatry)" to live up to the dietary and lifestyle changes, so whether its high blood pressure or depression, the doctors keep handing out the prescriptions. Anti-depressants/anti-anxiety drugs only take care of symptoms,not the causes. Diet, exercise, and cognitive therapy are the only long term solutions, particularly for people with bi-polar whose brain chemistry will ALWAYS fluctuate and swing between episodes of mania and depression. These as you've said, begin to lean on the meds as a crutch, but its not entirely their fault, its the nature of our current medical system, which is drug oriented. Hence my emphasis on diet and exercise, which will do more to alleviate symptoms than just drugs alone, and will be the long term solution to ween off of the drugs. The problem? These drugs seriously alter natural brain chemistry and function, so people can't always just "stop taking them" rather have to detox, over a long period of time. Depression is a natural side-effect of this withdrawing period, so people tend to get back on the meds rather than fight through it. I've known folks taking these meds for 15 or more years, daily! Call me a stoner, but I'd much rather smoke pot every day than take such "medications" every day for the same extended periods of time, quite literally pot has less measurable change in neurochemistry, and this has been demonstrated consistently in the laboratory. Cannabis does NOT cause structural brain damage, period, end of story. However, and quite obvious to anybody who has ever smoked it, cannabis does effect processing short term into long term memory, so this is what explains the "memory loss" associated with chronic pot smoking. There is no actual brain damage as with say alcohol or meth (or even pharmaceuticals), rather the person was just too damned stoned all the time to have bothered to remembered things, and later after the fact having been stoned all the time forgot that they never remembered somethings in the first place and so thing they have "forgotten" what in fact they never really knew! I can't wait until 10-15 years when American medicine more readily and legitimately embraces cannabis therapy as a valid treatment for serious depression and bi-polar, but I fear too many stoners with "medical cards" are abusing the system and giving cannabis as serious medicine a bad rep.

Quote:
meds are a GREAT crutch while you mend, but if you take them while continuing insane patterns you get crazies like adam lanza or a bunch of other killer suckas where the meds only fuel/enable the craziness. same thing happens with depression-- meds can prop you up but they won't cure toxic shame or ptsd from abuse. that requires therapy.

In other words, exactly!

Quote:

the depressed people i know who take meds without therapy are still depressed and probably sicker due to side effects. but there is more serious shit like bipolar and other heavy disorders that for all we know require lifetime meds-- but also therapy, support groups etc. meds without therapy are like a broken car that gets back to running but with no steering wheel.

In other words, exactly. No cognitive therapy, no healing. Whether its with your therapist or a priest/minister, people need to deal with their depression with the almost shamanistic help of a wiser other. Going at it alone with drugs will not solve the problem, if anything, it will only prolong the inevitability of increasing problems :/
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Old 12.04.2013, 09:41 AM   #1044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
By the way, I find it fascinating how depressives regard depression in general. Everyone's perceives it a little differently, which I guess makes sense. And it's interesting how depressives respond differently to different things. Jogging doesn't do squat for my mood, St. John's not your thing, Prozac makes so-and-so hurl twice a day. But you're spot on about the need for therapy. At night, don't we all dream of the perfect shrink?

yeah, it's not that st johns doesn't work for me, it's that the mechanism is unknown and i believe it does it by increasing sensitivity to light which triggers a brain response---as well as eye irritation-- but you could get the same stimulus from a daily walk in the sun, if you have it available, get your sunlight on and end the winter blues. my problem w/ stjw was feeling like i had ground glass inside my eyelids-- it became intolerable. plus it has other interactions you gotta be wary of, and it's hard to figure a proper dosage, as concentrations vary widely. i mean, if nothing else is available by all means use it, but if you have access to advanced chemistry then why not do that instead.

but the thing is, "depression" is a broad name that doesn't really define the causes, which can be many and multiple. if depression is trying to kill you, you gotta hit it back with whatever you got-- exercise, diet, herbs, pills, books, work, sleep, therapy, everything everything everything. just keep punching.

and in that sense a therapist works like a coach/trainer. my ideal therapist would be a mixture of the old dude from the rocky movies that looked like popeye and an existentialist like maybe camus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
I get the difference between A and B, but you didn't mention C, who is almost exactly like A EXCEPT: feels depressed about the situation anyway, despite all rational thought. The shards remind C of the fleetingness of everything, death. Anyway, before the vase broke, C was already feeling down. No reason. Just woke up with a sense of the futility of everything and it's been hard to shake off the feeling, despite really trying by thinking of various wonderful things. Doesn't help. The mood colors C's perception of the world, and C knows it's a deception, but C still can't see around it. C's been feeling this way for weeks. (As for the sex scene, hopefully C's lover is turned on by mopey souls.) Result: depression, but probably not suicide. Maybe, but probably not. No, just a depression that goes on and on and on, as if life was a Becket play.

IMO, C just needs to read better philosophers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
If jogging hasn't done anything for your mood, your just not doing it right.

exercise is good of course, but i think you're being way too dogmatic here.

jogging is not the only physical activity in the world. even a 15 minute walk in the sun, without sunglasses, can deliver a lot of the benefits (improving your circulation and normalizing your circadian rhythms) without the potential pain an injury of jumping about on sneakers while you grind your knees and destroy your lower back (read "born to run" for more on the wrongness of "jogging".)

these days i help keep myself sane with assorted physical labor-- chopping wood, shoveling dirt, doing construction in my own house. but exercise is not a cure-all.

years ago i was doing labor in a construction crew and i was ripped and felt physically great but i still was depressed because i was stuck toiling without brains and my life was going nowhere. so even though i worked hard and ate great and got plenty of sunlight, there were mornings i felt so shitty i just couldn't wake up. that got fixed when i got back in school and my life had meaning again.

like i said to evollove, many causes, often compounded with each other.
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Old 12.04.2013, 10:21 AM   #1045
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Old 12.04.2013, 05:30 PM   #1046
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Old 12.06.2013, 09:42 AM   #1047
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“Edward Hasbrouck of the Identity Project is doing a fantastic job of reporting on-site from Ibrahim v. DHS, the first legal challenge of United States government’s no-fly list that has ever seen a courtroom. On the first day of trial, the judge learned that the plaintiff’s daughter, scheduled to testify, was delayed because she had been denied boarding of her flight because she was put a Department of Homeland Security no-fly list. DHS staff deny this. The government’s lawyers told the judge that the daughter is lying. The airline provided documentation of the DHS no-fly order. The subject matter of this trial is intense—restriction of movement based on blacklists—but there’s no sign of an end to the jaw-dropping entertainment.”
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Old 12.06.2013, 12:37 PM   #1048
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Old 12.06.2013, 01:00 PM   #1049
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will never except that depression is a kind of post modern replacement for sin. you dont owe anyone some sort of labour for the sake of positivity.

depression is frozen truth, face the truth and it will dissolve. if you cant bear the truth (and our entire culture is set up to deny this and block this breakout, and make facing it seem even more daunting) then you will never truly defeat your depression.

of course, the idea that there is some inherent reason why life must not be a permanent depression is itself a fairytale.
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Old 12.06.2013, 01:47 PM   #1050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery

depression is frozen truth, face the truth and it will dissolve. if you cant bear the truth (and our entire culture is set up to deny this and block this breakout, and make facing it seem even more daunting) then you will never truly defeat your depression.



yeah....it's something I've been trying to find out if it is real or not(the truth). I've asked friends and family....and it's always being denied...but I KNOW otherwise....and it's something I will not accept. My roommate has being trying to help(I think) and perhaps after the most recent incident, it seems like he is now understanding a little bit. Simply accepting this fact will not make this 'go away'...it is a problem that I have to address.
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Old 12.06.2013, 02:14 PM   #1051
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Depression is a motherfucker. Music was my only salve. http://youtu.be/o3M6u6WJNKM CODEINE - Frigid Stars LP.
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Old 12.06.2013, 02:36 PM   #1052
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That is exactly right. And my roommate has the patience of a saint to constantly put up with my music....because my speakers are constantly connected to something(computer/mp3/CD's/rekkidz)
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Old 12.06.2013, 08:57 PM   #1053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery


depression is frozen truth, face the truth and it will dissolve. if you cant bear the truth (and our entire culture is set up to deny this and block this breakout, and make facing it seem even more daunting) then you will never truly defeat your depression.


of course, the idea that there is some inherent reason why life must not be a permanent depression is itself a fairytale.

 
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Old 12.09.2013, 02:44 AM   #1054
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Old 12.09.2013, 06:11 PM   #1055
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^^^ you light my fire.

me? I'm playing Civ V (hotseat) with the lil' lady. it's her first time! thanks to an untimely misadventure, I'm now only slightly ahead of an unnamed entity (who is very much dead last).

my turns take 30 seconds; hers take 15 minutes. half the npcs are in love with her ivory.

so....so much for showing her how "neat" a science victory might be.

queue: THE WAR MACHINE
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Old 12.09.2013, 06:43 PM   #1056
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Old 12.10.2013, 01:36 PM   #1057
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Indeed, the [NYPD] police issued 510,370 criminal court summonses in 2012, but there were only 1,062 trials, according to an annual report issued by the state’s Office of Court Administration. This means very few questionable arrests ...ever make trial.
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Old 12.10.2013, 02:21 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by tesla69
Indeed, the [NYPD] police issued 510,370 criminal court summonses in 2012, but there were only 1,062 trials, according to an annual report issued by the state’s Office of Court Administration. This means very few questionable arrests ...ever make trial.

does it mean that thousands of people are locked up without trial?
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Old 12.10.2013, 02:26 PM   #1059
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So I'm sitting at the computer that's just off our kitchen. I'm reading something sports related when I see movement out of the corner of my eye. Low and behold there was a big ass rat in the middle of our kitchen floor. It was just sitting there not moving. I had put out some poison a few months back and thought it may have found it. But when I stood up, he wobbled out the back door.

You see, were having foundation issues and the kitchen door that leads to the garage sometimes becomes dislodged from the frame. It's a lot tougher to deal with in the winter with all the fain than in the dryer summer. I've made so many altercations to the door, it's no longer "normal."

So we're going to have a carpenter come and rebuild us a new door frame and hang a new door. This won't prevent rats from seeking warmth from the bitter cold, but it will prevent them from walking in the backdoor : )
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Old 12.10.2013, 02:28 PM   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
does it mean that thousands of people are locked up without trial?

I'm guessing a great deal come to some sort of plea agreement so the case never sees the inside of a courtroom.
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