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Old 07.03.2013, 09:24 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
I don't like acid, too strong. Mushrooms? Fantastic. Hallucinate? Avoid daturas, they are terrible terrible plants that will send you into powerful visions. The reality of vision quests is sometimes they are fun, sometimes they are horrific, but so is everyday life isn't it, its the impact of the vision that is important. As to "bad trip" stories, these were necessary. They served their proper purpose. Acid is a strong drug, people should avoid drugs. Then again, Salvia is a strong plant, people should also be wary of many plants.


 

"its possible that thinking as such is an emergent property of the kind of hallucinations we have learned to have due to co-evolving with plants and mushrooms"
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Old 07.03.2013, 09:45 AM   #482
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I am firmly in the camp of people who think that self-referential consciousness evolved through our homo sapiens ancestors ingesting psychoactive substances.
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Old 07.03.2013, 09:58 AM   #483
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yeah i think its possible.

however i fail to see a reason why it would justify us currently ingesting this stuff.

i mean if you strip away the 'open the doors of perception man' 60's shit all you have is hedonism and the most retardedly stupid 'contact with like, higher, like, shit man.' the problem is that these substances are too dangerous and unpredictable and are as likely to poison you or give you a bad trip than anything else.

and anyone pretending that they 'know' how to take it and avoid these things is just trying to show off what a smug self pleasuring rebel they are. most of the time the ass clowns who fuck around with this stuff end up making some inexperienced person ill. if i was REALLY cynical i could say that people like these drugs because its a way to make others weak and susceptible to trying to fuck them at parties.

i dont see why you NEED these substances to have a mystical experience. you already have a brain. you can just sit there. look at your navel - its cheaper and safer. meditate. you're already doing it. look at the wall.

this is the logical thing to do, since you know that in this state the only thing that is likely to be 'off' about your neuro-physical hardware is if you have a bad diet and have bad nutrition. or the air is bad or you're sick in some way you haven't noticed yet. you are more likely to come up with a good idea or avoid doing something stupid. on acid i just wrote the word "light" a few hundred times in a notebook. it sure felt important at the time tho...

i take nootropics sometimes. i am more concerned with maintaining the safest and healthiest possible 'normal' state than putting on a hemp shirt and finger painting with my own drivel on a saturday night to the doors to like, escape the negative vibes in the world. why cant these people prove their point about the natural world being so superior and eat some arsenic, or an amanita mushroom?
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Old 07.03.2013, 11:02 AM   #484
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it's all natural.

it is the height of avarice to think that the "straight" human experience/consciousness is actually all you need to see/feel/experience.

Shamans and mystics through all of human time have shared very similar experiences whether rthey achieve them through chemicals, physical exertion, ascetism, ritual, etc. In fact, most shamans say that after using chems to achieve these higher states of consciousness several times, they can then achieve them without the chems.

chems alone is a dangerous path to this, as stated by all the shamans/mystics, because it takes mental willpower combined with ritual to actually master it all. chems alone can descend into pure chaos, the opposite of will.
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Old 07.03.2013, 02:34 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
I am firmly in the camp of people who think that self-referential consciousness evolved through our homo sapiens ancestors ingesting psychoactive substances.

More or less, I agree with this, and I was raised a Baptist mind you! It is clear from the extensive Endocannabinoid system in the human body and brain thathuman beings have been ingesting cannabis for the vast majority of our 250,000 year odd history as homo sapiens, at that it very may well have evolved our consciousness. Further, ingesting mushrooms, tree barks, crazy fruits, and fungi from bread molds may have caused extreme short term boosts in consciousness.

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Problem is I got books you cannot find at the Library.

really? My fucking problem is that since I graduated from university and lost access to the CA statewide interlibrary service Links+ (which gives you access to literally 200 college campus libraries) I realized that ALL the books I read there and want to own, ARE OUT OF FUCKING PRINT, NOT FOR SALE ANYWHERE, and those libraries I borrowed them from seem to have some of the last copies in the known Multiverse!! Sighs.
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Old 07.03.2013, 02:49 PM   #486
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I also got complete collections of Bagge's HATE comix, V for vendetta, Sin City, Dark Knight Returns, Teh Shadow, The Nam, etc.....

I hope those mylar bags were a good investment!

also, Public Enemy, Ice Cube, LL Cool J and De la Soul are playing in H Town tonight and I CANNOT GO

That shit SUCKS>
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Old 07.03.2013, 02:50 PM   #487
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and our brain actually manufactures DMT. that shit is CRAZY

How do the mushrooms and the plants know that they will affect our brains in that way?
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Old 07.03.2013, 02:51 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by dead_battery
yeah i think its possible.

however i fail to see a reason why it would justify us currently ingesting this stuff.


Are you not interested in further advancing your states of consciousness? The brain perceives every detail of reality, but it is to overpowering for the conscious mind to relate and "know". When you absorb psychoactive substances, the mind is allowed to experience deeper levels of reality, which the senses pick up, but which the normal mind can't understand. Consuming these chemicals then is sort of like looking at the world with a bad ass spectroscopic satellite, seeing signals which are beyond the perception of visible light.

Quote:

i mean if you strip away the 'open the doors of perception man' 60's shit all you have is hedonism and the most retardedly stupid 'contact with like, higher, like, shit man.'

Only if hedonism is what you want to see, or what is deeply imbedded within you! Me? I and many others generally have the opposite effect. Mushrooms put my dick away, beer brings out the beast

Quote:
the problem is that these substances are too dangerous and unpredictable and are as likely to poison you or give you a bad trip than anything else.

But this is just because that is life! Everyday is a crap shoot gamble. Life is good and bad at the same time. Why should vision quests be any different than?

Quote:

and anyone pretending that they 'know' how to take it and avoid these things is just trying to show off what a smug self pleasuring rebel they are. most of the time the ass clowns who fuck around with this stuff end up making some inexperienced person ill.

This is true. But that is why it is best to leave such to the experts and experienced.

Quote:
if i was REALLY cynical i could say that people like these drugs because its a way to make others weak and susceptible to trying to fuck them at parties.

yeah, because who doesn't like to have sex on acid right? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS? Now I know you're either just (a) trolling or (b) never took acid a day in your life.


Quote:
i dont see why you NEED these substances to have a mystical experience. you already have a brain. you can just sit there. look at your navel - its cheaper and safer. meditate. you're already doing it. look at the wall.
Agreed completely. What you are talking about is called "contemplation" and for me, contemplating on sacred images such as this are far more moving than any psychoactive substance, but again, there is a time and place for everything, and the human brain is very clearly designed to ingest many of these plants.


 



Quote:
eat some arsenic, or an amanita mushroom?

You can't eat amanita mushrooms. They are toxic, even lethal! Further, they're not psychoactive through the stomach. Just like you can't just eat raw cannabis, it has be cooked or smoked to be psychoactive, the way in which folks in the Caucasus ingested these mushrooms traditionally was that the shaman would eat them, have no effect, but the psychoactive chemicals are distributed out of the body through the urine, then folks drink this psychoactive infused urine, THEN THEY TRIP. This is why folks don't consume these kinds of mushrooms, instead they eat Psilocybin mushrooms, which predominantly grow in Mexico and the Americas.

Hey, psychonautical vision quests aren't for everybody, but it doesn't negate their depth nor power.
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Old 07.03.2013, 02:56 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
and our brain actually manufactures DMT. that shit is CRAZY

How do the mushrooms and the plants know that they will affect our brains in that way?

They didn't initially. Evolutionarily speaking, it was an accident. We ingested these plants, and what is actually poisonous and toxic to a less developed brain and nervous system for ourselves and perhaps other upper-primates, is a psychoactive experience. Insects nervous system is vaporized by these chemicals. They are a plants defense against predation. YET, when these plants, much like apples or tulips, discovered that humans enjoy them, they evolved to produce more and stronger quantities of psychoactive substances to lure humans into eating, dispensing, and even cultivating these plants. The plants are manipulating us to help them in their sexual cycle like they do bees and elephants. We eat them, shit out their seeds and spores, and the circle of life carries on as ever. Have you read Botany of Desire? In all actuality, plants may be even themselves consciously doing this. They may "know" that we like their flowers, fruits, and psychoactive induced adventures, and therefore produce brighter flowers, sweeter fruits, and more potent psychoactive chemicals in order to strengthen their interdependent relationship with ourselves. As to DMT? That is produced by a bark in the rainforest, and rainforest plants are almost all universally poisonous. In the Congo, rural African folks actually use these bark poisons to catch fish. They mash the bark into a pulp, then flood a small stream with this bark in baskets, the poison leaches into the water, stunning all the fish, who become an easy catch. Meanwhile the poison itself is harmless to people.
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Old 07.03.2013, 03:03 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Problem is I got books you cannot find at the Library.

i hear you man. i have some first editions that can't be find anywhere but my suggestion would be that as you rebuild your collection (what you can't rescue) be very picky about what to buy. i.e., watch out for those $1 cases full of paperbacks at the library sale and that sort of thing. it adds up.

i still have a bunch of bookkases full but i'm paring down. foreign books and first editions rare books and art books i'm keeping, paperbacks and shit i don't ever wanna look at again or i can get easily-- all that is going to the flea market table/ amazon/ etc. do i need a latin grammar book from the 60s? probably not.
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Old 07.03.2013, 03:08 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
i hear you man. i have some first editions that can't be find anywhere but my suggestion would be that as you rebuild your collection (what you can't rescue) be very picky about what to buy. i.e., watch out for those $1 cases full of paperbacks at the library sale and that sort of thing. it adds up.

i still have a bunch of bookkases full but i'm paring down. foreign books and first editions rare books and art books i'm keeping, paperbacks and shit i don't ever wanna look at again or i can get easily-- all that is going to the flea market table/ amazon/ etc. do i need a latin grammar book from the 60s? probably not.

The problem is that Amazon Marketplace DESTROYED good pricing on rare books. NOW every asshole that has a used book shop does his research and instead of selling dusted, musty out-of-print and obscure titles he is smart and puts them on the internet at inflated prices, waiting for someone to do a search.
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Old 07.03.2013, 03:11 PM   #492
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The problem is that Amazon Marketplace DESTROYED good pricing on rare books. NOW every asshole that has a used book shop does his research and instead of selling dusted, musty out-of-print and obscure titles he is smart and puts them on the internet at inflated prices, waiting for someone to do a search.

i don't understand the scenario. how is a more transparent market a bad thing, and for who?
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Old 07.03.2013, 03:32 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
i don't understand the scenario. how is a more transparent market a bad thing, and for who?

its not more transparent, its given the smaller retailers a significant upperhand by increasing their marketability. Previously, you could find gems of old, out-of-print books like Ethiopianists like myself enjoy reading, on the backshelves of used booksellers for a few dollars, because these retailers could rarely IF EVER find an actual interested buyer, because hey, how many Ethiophiles are there really in any given regional market? So it was a BUYERS market. NOW with Amazon giving some used book store world-wide access simply from their email account, they are RIPPING off people left and right. Books that ten years ago would have sold for $20 cash are going for $200-2000 all day, because wealthier customers are willing to pay that, and smaller book buyers like ourselves are assed out. Even if your local used bookseller had a copy of an obscure book that is out of print, they will not sell it on their shelves for a negotiable price, they will put it online Amazon and even sit on it for SEVERAL YEARS until some more lucrative buyer finds it online and pays beyond top-dollar.
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Old 07.03.2013, 04:29 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
its not more transparent, its given the smaller retailers a significant upperhand by increasing their marketability. Previously, you could find gems of old, out-of-print books like Ethiopianists like myself enjoy reading, on the backshelves of used booksellers for a few dollars, because these retailers could rarely IF EVER find an actual interested buyer, because hey, how many Ethiophiles are there really in any given regional market? So it was a BUYERS market. NOW with Amazon giving some used book store world-wide access simply from their email account, they are RIPPING off people left and right. Books that ten years ago would have sold for $20 cash are going for $200-2000 all day, because wealthier customers are willing to pay that, and smaller book buyers like ourselves are assed out. Even if your local used bookseller had a copy of an obscure book that is out of print, they will not sell it on their shelves for a negotiable price, they will put it online Amazon and even sit on it for SEVERAL YEARS until some more lucrative buyer finds it online and pays beyond top-dollar.

that's great then because it keeps small retailers in business by giving them a larger market in which to operate. it's more transparent in that buyers and sellers know what the prices are across the market. and without profit, nobody is going to run a used book store. working for no profit is called slavery.
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Old 07.03.2013, 04:36 PM   #495
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that's great then because it keeps small retailers in business by giving them a larger market in which to operate. it's more transparent in that buyers and sellers know what the prices are across the market. and without profit, nobody is going to run a used book store. working for no profit is called slavery.

How is it great for customers who traditionally enjoyed buy otherwise unbuyable books? I think in the long run, it it will hurt sellers more than buyers, because, buying used books has long been an art like record hunting. The search feature of internet marketplace eliminates the art, and further, if the sellers suddenly have an advantage which previously was their disadvantage, they hold all the cards. Book sellers aren't going to disappear suddenly because they sell used, out-of-print books for $20 instead of $200, and that is just a fact. Don't let the anti-corporate ethos suddenly give independent retailers supreme benefit of the doubt. Their bottom line is to make money, my bottom line as a customer is to save money. Further, if they sell me several books for $200 instead of a single book, I am (a) more likely to do business with them in the future and (b) their volume will increase and be more sustainable over the long term.

In LA we had a head shop boom in the early 2000s, suddenly everybody wanted to sell bongs and pipes. Then they realized the people really only need to buy so many bongs and pipes, and that it is a relatively slow business. In business, volume is everything. Its often better to make a bit less money in the short term if it creates a more sustainable structure over the long. Sitting on a single book for several months or even years to sell it on the internet for tens times what its previously worth in your own geographic region decreases local volume, and therefore opportunities to expand the local customer base. This whole online retailing is a self-destructive business model, business think they are making more money by expanding their reach, but in all actuality, business is generally best when its local, and by alienating local buyers with inflated, out-of-town pricing you lose more than you gain
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Old 07.03.2013, 05:18 PM   #496
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How is it great for customers who traditionally enjoyed buy otherwise unbuyable books? I think in the long run, it it will hurt sellers more than buyers, because, buying used books has long been an art like record hunting. The search feature of internet marketplace eliminates the art, and further, if the sellers suddenly have an advantage which previously was their disadvantage, they hold all the cards. Book sellers aren't going to disappear suddenly because they sell used, out-of-print books for $20 instead of $200, and that is just a fact. Don't let the anti-corporate ethos suddenly give independent retailers supreme benefit of the doubt. Their bottom line is to make money, my bottom line as a customer is to save money. Further, if they sell me several books for $200 instead of a single book, I am (a) more likely to do business with them in the future and (b) their volume will increase and be more sustainable over the long term.

In LA we had a head shop boom in the early 2000s, suddenly everybody wanted to sell bongs and pipes. Then they realized the people really only need to buy so many bongs and pipes, and that it is a relatively slow business. In business, volume is everything. Its often better to make a bit less money in the short term if it creates a more sustainable structure over the long. Sitting on a single book for several months or even years to sell it on the internet for tens times what its previously worth in your own geographic region decreases local volume, and therefore opportunities to expand the local customer base. This whole online retailing is a self-destructive business model, business think they are making more money by expanding their reach, but in all actuality, business is generally best when its local, and by alienating local buyers with inflated, out-of-town pricing you lose more than you gain

ha ha ha, you selfish bastard, you just miss your free lunch and you're constructing byzantine fallacies to justify why you should keep getting it.

you're probably a good theologian though.
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Old 07.03.2013, 05:26 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
ha ha ha, you selfish bastard, you just miss your free lunch and you're constructing byzantine fallacies to justify why you should keep getting it.

you're probably a good theologian though.



 

Haha.. I am the associate theologian of Sonic Youth Gossip
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Old 07.03.2013, 05:38 PM   #498
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ha ha ha, i see your title!
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Old 07.03.2013, 05:39 PM   #499
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Old 07.05.2013, 11:38 AM   #500
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I can completely understand the rage felt by brick&mortar store owners who have tons of people come by to test out a product , then go order what they want from an online retailer.
Thsi happens at musical instrument places, bookstores, record stores, electronic stores, etc.
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