[Severian]

I swear I already made a thread about this, but fuck it.

What are your thoughts/feelings on TDKR, now that you've seen it and the whole thing is over?

I have to say, I will need to see it again, as I believe I missed some things (easy to do with such rapid-fire dialogue and story profession). I believe there was some symbolism I failed to notice, and that repeated viewings will be necessary in order to fully appreciate the film.

Noisefield and I caught it on opening night, in a theatre so packed that we couldn't even sit together. We are both huge fans, and have been waiting for this since the moment the Dark Knight ended. I left the theatre wholly satisfied, but with a feeling akin to that of a child after all the presents have been opened on Christmas morning. But the movie was incredible, and it truly is a near flawless trilogy, and a complete story. Batman has never and will never be done better, and I feel that a part of my life that began when I saw Burton's Batman in 1989 at age 9, has reached its conclusion.

*Potential Spoilers Ahead*

Bane was perfect. Better by far than any comic book adaptation. He was always something of a crap character; a silly response to the hyperviolent and overly muscled IMAGE characters of the early '90s. Now, the character has been given substance and meaning, and I am so fucking glad the Penguin and Riddler were dropped on favor of him. I had my doubts, but Tom Hardy (especially with his utterly babylike face obscured by a menacing breathing apparatus) was absolutely fucking chilling. Knowing they could not top the Joker, they wisely did not even try. They opted instead for something new, and the result was perfect. One does not even feel the need to compare the two. They are different threats entirely. Well done, Nolan. Well done.

Catwoman was my biggest concern, but the fact thatbthe words "Catwoman" were never uttered once (only eluded to with the "cat-burglar" news clippings) made the whole thing go off without a hitch, keeping well within the boundaries of realism set by the filmmakers.

No-man's Land based storyline was a great surprise, for someone (me) who avoided spoilers and story details like the plague. I was wondering how they could possibly make a story bigger in scope than the Long Halloween-based TDK.. but combining NML and Knightfall worked perfectly.

Thank you Mr. Nolan for excluding Robin, but still giving Batman a fitting sidekick character whose story aligned with scenes from Begins. I guess it wouldn't have killed you to simply let Levitt's character be named "Jason" or '"Dick," (see theory) while otherwise letting everything play out as it did, but fuck it. At least giving the Robin-esque John Blake a new identity prevents WB from trying to pull a Robin movie later on (though a Noghtwing one may have worked just fine).

All in all, I would have changed almost nothing. Noisefield and I both literally shed tears, damn us to hell. This is possibly the finest trilogy, in any genre, that mainstream Hollywood has ever produced. That is saying a LOT. Good luck Iron Man, you cocky CGI fuck. You are going to need it ; and so is every attempt at comic-book film adaptation from now on. I hope nobody tries to "do" Batman again for at least 50 years. It's been done to perfection, and humiliation and failure await anyone who dares.
...
Here's my theory, though: Christopher Nolan has set himself up perfectly for a "Dark Knight Returns" adaptation ten years from now. With Superman (Man of Steel) on the way, and an ideal Robin scenario in place, the plot could be executed almost perfectly, with very little Hollywood story-manipulation. He's also set it up so that such an undertaking would be a massive surprise, and probably a freaking ridiculous money-maker. However, in order to maintain the realism of the franchise, and the perfect feel of the trilogy, the plot would actually necessitate the absence of Superman completely. Is it possible? Yes. Bale would be the proper age, and the Green Arrow could easily be for into the story. Is it probable? Not at all. Pipe dream.

Best movie of 2012. If it doesn't get an Oscar nod I will be shocked and personally offended. The biggest problem: not enough scream time for Gary Goldman, who could have been given an Oscar worthy part, with just a little more actual *acting* and maybe 15 more minutes of length for the film overall. I didn't see enough of the best Commissioner Gordon the world has ever seen or will ever see. Apart from that, and an ending that I need to see again to know exactly how I feel about it, the film also was a little light on Alfred, who almost seemed like an afterthought when he showed up near the end.

But damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. I couldn't have asked for more.

[Genteel Death]

http://pitchfork.com/jobs/

[Murmer99]

I've already shared my thoughts on the movies thread, but definitely want to give credit once again to Tom Hardy for his surprisingly great performance. He's brilliant in nearly everything he's in, actually. His performance in Bronson is still very underrated I think, and though it isn't my kind of movie, he's impressive in "Warrior" too.

I don't remember The Dark Knight Returns that well, should I try to find a copy soon? Honestly, I've always felt reluctant to check anything out with Superman involved, as it's always disappointing to me. I'll still give it a try.. as well as the next film I guess, whenever that comes out.

And I think you and Noisefield probably enjoyed it more than I did. That's cool, I still thought the films had some flaws, but ultimately the final two in the trilogy were very fun to watch. The storytelling has never been better, that's one advantage I think Nolan's world has when comparing to others. The advantage Burton has, at least with his first attempt, is that you don't really have to trim any footage out at all.. and it feels just right. There are moments in Nolan's films that don't feel all that necessary. But the theme that involved Bruce thinking that Gotham no longer needed Batman anymore, and watching him return without acknowledging what he was going up against was a pretty nice breath of fresh air. He gets trapped in Bane's underground lair and they have their first face to face encounter, and there is no music in that scene at all. It's nothing but natural sounds. The intensity went up another level in this one, and I am interested to see where this will go next, if it even will spawn another film. The ending left something open but it isn't obvious what direction it will go in.

Also, I found the ending to be a bit difficult to understand. I guess I now realize that Bruce is still alive, but it did a little flashback to an earlier scene, when Alfred was imagining Bruce with a woman, leading a life without having to worry about Batman ever again. Then the guy turns around and it isn't really Bruce.. does that mean that final scene was just Alfred imagining Bruce still alive? and his reaction implied (to me, anyways) that he knew it all along. Maybe I'm looking into it too much?

[Dude McDude]

I liked most of it.

I think it was interesting to see how they used classic historical images, like the peoples court french revolution style, people lining up for empty food stores (i remember seeing those images in the 80's news broadcasts from soviet union), also the army of unarmed policemen was classic riot imagery, save that all in all two cops got killed.

The play on communism came off to me as some new form of mccarthyism. There seemed to be a subtext of communism fear, which sort of surprised me. I thought that was old rhetorics, and yet you see it in images all over the movie or in quotes like "it's everybodys house now".

Still a good dudeflick though.

I think the ending was pretty straight forward with Bruce Wayne faking batmans death and formed a family, (was that with catwoman by the way?) Robin will most likely take over the role as either new batman or well... robin. Sequels are now secured.

Was it just me who cringed in the seat from Alfreds overcommitment in Bruce Waynes err... family plans?

[EVOLghost]

I enjoyed the fuck out of it. Bane's voice was hilarious!

I'm at work...so I'll get back to reading this later.

[Murmer99]

Originally Posted by Dude McDude

I think the ending was pretty straight forward with Bruce Wayne faking batmans death and formed a family, (was that with catwoman by the way?)

My personal issue with it was that somewhere in the beginning there's a scene that shows a flashback of Alfred in the very same place where Bruce is shown at the end, where he's imagining Bruce with a woman and starting a new life he's satisfied with. But the man he sees as Bruce turns around and was only a figment of Alfred's imagination. So initially I thought the ending could've just been Alfred's imagination... but like I said, I probably looked too deep into it, as it isn't a very good way to end a movie. Also, yes it was Selina Kyle (catwoman) who was sitting with Bruce at the end. Her character also mentioned a few times that she wanted to start fresh.

[Derek]

This movie was a large incoherent mess.

[Murmer99]

How was it incoherent?

[blunderbuss]

As comic book heroes go, I prefer Dennis the Menace.

[Beethoven]

Me and the hubby went to watch this last week and we both really enjoyed it. For the first time in ages I have more time for myself because my parents are helping with the costs involved in providing a regular baby-sitter.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Murmer99

How was it incoherent?

Because the plot was a total shamble?

I really have a lot of problems with this movie.

For one thing, I couldn't understand Bane nearly the whole movie. I've consulted with other people and they agreed with me, so it wasn't just my cinema's sound system.

Why was his name ROBIN? His name is Dick Grayson, you can't just make it ROBIN so idiotic people will understand who he is. I mean, you could have done it so many other ways than THAT. It's like if Bruce Wayne went into that woman's office and she said, "you should go by your full name... BATMAN". Dumb dumb dumb. Oh and Roland Daggett is suddenly John Daggett? You're doing a fan service by even including that character so why not just throw a bone to the fans and keep with ROLAND?

There would be no way for Batman to escape that nuclear explosion. Even if you said "oh he put the plane on autopilot", it doesn't work because you saw shots of him heading towards the sea. And we're meant to believe that he survived at the end? What was even up with the ending? Alfred literally sees Bruce and Selina sitting at a restaurant... It would have been so much better if you just saw Alfred give a quick nod then we would have gotten the idea.

So much terrible dialogue filled with pseudo-philosophical garbage. And what was up with Joseph Gordon Levitt's character? "I knew you were Batman because you're an orphan just like me"? Fucking STUPID.

Very cute political allusions too. Maybe Bane representing the underclass could have worked if he wasn't going to blow everyone up anyway. There was no point in it at all in terms of the plot and only served to provide shallow depth.

"You've given these people everything" "Not everything, not yet". Seriously what is the point in that if Batman was going to live at the end of it? It feels like they've spent the whole trilogy setting up the martydom for Batman only to pull out at the last minute with "Oh no, we can't have a sad movie, he needs to live with a happy ending". Fuck no.

So plot holes aside, the directing and editing was shoddy. I don't understand how Nolan needs to have such quickfire editing. Scenes that were supposed to be epic fell flat because the dude has no idea how to do camera angles. So many characters too that a lot of them just felt underdeveloped... Talia added nothing. Also cute how there was no blood in the movie to secure a lower rating... really makes sense when Talia is sitting in the truck dying with no blood coming out of her at all. I had no idea she was dying until she did, I thought she was just shocked/had a bad stitch.

There was so much more wrong with this movie but I'm drawing some blanks right now because it's been a number of days since I've seen it. You can say I'm nitpicking all you want but all of these added up make one incoherent mess of a movie. I'm surprised it's getting so much praise from people and I kind of wonder if we all watched the same movie. Sure, it was high budget and polished but I doubt most people I speak to would be fooled by that. I really wanted to like this movie but it just pissed me off.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Murmer99

I've already shared my thoughts on the movies thread, but definitely want to give credit once again to Tom Hardy for his surprisingly great performance. He's brilliant in nearly everything he's in, actually. His performance in Bronson is still very underrated I think, and though it isn't my kind of movie, he's impressive in "Warrior" too.

I don't remember The Dark Knight Returns that well, should I try to find a copy soon? Honestly, I've always felt reluctant to check anything out with Superman involved, as it's always disappointing to me. I'll still give it a try.. as well as the next film I guess, whenever that comes out.

And I think you and Noisefield probably enjoyed it more than I did. That's cool, I still thought the films had some flaws, but ultimately the final two in the trilogy were very fun to watch. The storytelling has never been better, that's one advantage I think Nolan's world has when comparing to others. The advantage Burton has, at least with his first attempt, is that you don't really have to trim any footage out at all.. and it feels just right. There are moments in Nolan's films that don't feel all that necessary. But the theme that involved Bruce thinking that Gotham no longer needed Batman anymore, and watching him return without acknowledging what he was going up against was a pretty nice breath of fresh air. He gets trapped in Bane's underground lair and they have their first face to face encounter, and there is no music in that scene at all. It's nothing but natural sounds. The intensity went up another level in this one, and I am interested to see where this will go next, if it even will spawn another film. The ending left something open but it isn't obvious what direction it will go in.

Also, I found the ending to be a bit difficult to understand. I guess I now realize that Bruce is still alive, but it did a little flashback to an earlier scene, when Alfred was imagining Bruce with a woman, leading a life without having to worry about Batman ever again. Then the guy turns around and it isn't really Bruce.. does that mean that final scene was just Alfred imagining Bruce still alive? and his reaction implied (to me, anyways) that he knew it all along. Maybe I'm looking into it too much?

Concering the ending, I had the same thought. It was not a flashback to another scene; rather, I believe, it was Alfred heading out fir his annual vacation once again. But was the vision of Bruce a hallucination? A fantasy? Probably not, because of you remember, they did include something at the end about Bruce having the plane altered under Lucius's name, allowing it to eject, or something (didn't quote catch that part) nut I believe Bruce survived, though it would not at all be unlike Nolan to include an ending of questionable "reality"

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Dude McDude

I liked most of it.

Was it just me who cringed in the seat from Alfreds overcommitment in Bruce Waynes err... family plans?

What exactly are you referring to here? Early on, when Alfred was acting like a Yiddish mother, and pressuring Bruce to get hitched? Or later, when Alfred was crying at the grave site? Because Alfred's reaction in the last scene seemed understated if anything; quote subtle. ?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Derek

Because the plot was a total shamble?

I really have a lot of problems with this movie.

For one thing, I couldn't understand Bane nearly the whole movie. I've consulted with other people and they agreed with me, so it wasn't just my cinema's sound system.

Why was his name ROBIN? His name is Dick Grayson, you can't just make it ROBIN so idiotic people will understand who he is. I mean, you could have done it so many other ways than THAT. It's like if Bruce Wayne went into that woman's office and she said, "you should go by your full name... BATMAN". Dumb dumb dumb. Oh and Roland Daggett is suddenly John Daggett? You're doing a fan service by even including that character so why not just throw a bone to the fans and keep with ROLAND?

There would be no way for Batman to escape that nuclear explosion. Even if you said "oh he put the plane on autopilot", it doesn't work because you saw shots of him heading towards the sea. And we're meant to believe that he survived at the end? What was even up with the ending? Alfred literally sees Bruce and Selina sitting at a restaurant... It would have been so much better if you just saw Alfred give a quick nod then we would have gotten the idea.

So much terrible dialogue filled with pseudo-philosophical garbage. And what was up with Joseph Gordon Levitt's character? "I knew you were Batman because you're an orphan just like me"? Fucking STUPID.

Very cute political allusions too. Maybe Bane representing the underclass could have worked if he wasn't going to blow everyone up anyway. There was no point in it at all in terms of the plot and only served to provide shallow depth.

"You've given these people everything" "Not everything, not yet". Seriously what is the point in that if Batman was going to live at the end of it? It feels like they've spent the whole trilogy setting up the martydom for Batman only to pull out at the last minute with "Oh no, we can't have a sad movie, he needs to live with a happy ending". Fuck no.

So plot holes aside, the directing and editing was shoddy. I don't understand how Nolan needs to have such quickfire editing. Scenes that were supposed to be epic fell flat because the dude has no idea how to do camera angles. So many characters too that a lot of them just felt underdeveloped... Talia added nothing. Also cute how there was no blood in the movie to secure a lower rating... really makes sense when Talia is sitting in the truck dying with no blood coming out of her at all. I had no idea she was dying until she did, I thought she was just shocked/had a bad stitch.

There was so much more wrong with this movie but I'm drawing some blanks right now because it's been a number of days since I've seen it. You can say I'm nitpicking all you want but all of these added up make one incoherent mess of a movie. I'm surprised it's getting so much praise from people and I kind of wonder if we all watched the same movie. Sure, it was high budget and polished but I doubt most people I speak to would be fooled by that. I really wanted to like this movie but it just pissed me off.

I respectfully disagree with just about everything g here, but I am heading (late) to work and can't comment.

But I really think the "Robin" thing was more an attempt at cute humor than anything else. A chance for fans to giggle a bit at the end. He's obviously not Dick or Tim or Jason, but as I said, I see no reason for not just giving him one of those names and editing the Robin character a bit. Like I said, just call him Dick and make room for a JGL Nightwing movie later on, for fuck's sake!

[Genteel Death]

 

[Dude McDude]

Originally Posted by Severian

What exactly are you referring to here? Early on, when Alfred was acting like a Yiddish mother, and pressuring Bruce to get hitched?

This.

[Murmer99]

Originally Posted by Derek

Because the plot was a total shamble?

I really have a lot of problems with this movie.

For one thing, I couldn't understand Bane nearly the whole movie. I've consulted with other people and they agreed with me, so it wasn't just my cinema's sound system.

Why was his name ROBIN? His name is Dick Grayson, you can't just make it ROBIN so idiotic people will understand who he is. I mean, you could have done it so many other ways than THAT. It's like if Bruce Wayne went into that woman's office and she said, "you should go by your full name... BATMAN". Dumb dumb dumb. Oh and Roland Daggett is suddenly John Daggett? You're doing a fan service by even including that character so why not just throw a bone to the fans and keep with ROLAND?

There would be no way for Batman to escape that nuclear explosion. Even if you said "oh he put the plane on autopilot", it doesn't work because you saw shots of him heading towards the sea. And we're meant to believe that he survived at the end? What was even up with the ending? Alfred literally sees Bruce and Selina sitting at a restaurant... It would have been so much better if you just saw Alfred give a quick nod then we would have gotten the idea.

So much terrible dialogue filled with pseudo-philosophical garbage. And what was up with Joseph Gordon Levitt's character? "I knew you were Batman because you're an orphan just like me"? Fucking STUPID.

Very cute political allusions too. Maybe Bane representing the underclass could have worked if he wasn't going to blow everyone up anyway. There was no point in it at all in terms of the plot and only served to provide shallow depth.

"You've given these people everything" "Not everything, not yet". Seriously what is the point in that if Batman was going to live at the end of it? It feels like they've spent the whole trilogy setting up the martydom for Batman only to pull out at the last minute with "Oh no, we can't have a sad movie, he needs to live with a happy ending". Fuck no.

So plot holes aside, the directing and editing was shoddy. I don't understand how Nolan needs to have such quickfire editing. Scenes that were supposed to be epic fell flat because the dude has no idea how to do camera angles. So many characters too that a lot of them just felt underdeveloped... Talia added nothing. Also cute how there was no blood in the movie to secure a lower rating... really makes sense when Talia is sitting in the truck dying with no blood coming out of her at all. I had no idea she was dying until she did, I thought she was just shocked/had a bad stitch.

There was so much more wrong with this movie but I'm drawing some blanks right now because it's been a number of days since I've seen it. You can say I'm nitpicking all you want but all of these added up make one incoherent mess of a movie. I'm surprised it's getting so much praise from people and I kind of wonder if we all watched the same movie. Sure, it was high budget and polished but I doubt most people I speak to would be fooled by that. I really wanted to like this movie but it just pissed me off.

Eh, that's fine I guess. I understood Bane perfectly fine, found the plot to be fairly straightforward (the only thing Bane was representing was the League of Shadows, which is staying loyal to the story of the trilogy), Bruce battles his own demons, constantly hovering between starting fresh without the Batman, and Gotham needing his presence because of a major threat. I had problems with it as well, but overall I found the movie to be very entertaining, and not completely without merit as you say. To each his own...

One major issue I had was the way they killed off Bane. It felt very anticlimactic, after I really found the buildup to the end engrossing. He just gets shot by catwoman and that's the last we see of him? I thought it was pretty weak. But like I said, despite its flaws I still had a lot of fun, so that's why I've praised it.

[!@#$%!]

I enjoyed the movie, but it doesn't require any sort of Deep Analysis-- otherwise you end up bitterly disappointed like Derek. It's a fucking mass spectacle, based on a comic book, have fun with it!

[EVOLghost]

Yah....I don't find bane hard to understand at all....my friend told me to listen closely but the there was only one part in the beginning where I found him somewhat mumbling.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

I enjoyed the movie, but it doesn't require any sort of Deep Analysis-- otherwise you end up bitterly disappointed like Derek. It's a fucking mass spectacle, based on a comic book, have fun with it!

But Nolan presented the movie as something more than just a fun superhero movie.

It's not 'fun' at all, it's extremely drawn out with a very serious tone. I don't think critical analysis is moot because it's a superhero movie.