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Old 04.04.2014, 03:25 PM   #37401
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fine. then lets not even talk about the individual perspective anymore.

you don't HAVE to bring it back to me in post after post.

-

seriously though - if saying "you have free will and its your own choice" sounds and perhaps even is quite sensible, but it in fact does not actually do anything to make the plague of addiction cease, then there is an ethical failure in not going further than that.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:29 PM   #37402
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the individual perspective is the one your house fire needs though. you can't wait until the city sees common sense and forms a fire brigade. aren't you desperate to quit? you quitting does not disqualify defeating the drug peddlers. there is more than one way to destroy them.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:29 PM   #37403
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ps- unless you wanna martyr yourself. but i don't think people will notice.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:32 PM   #37404
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telling a knife wielding maniac not to stab someone is not enough. you can't just go "well gee officer, i told him not to stab all those people, what more do you want from me?"

if you are there and you can see he's gonna do it you have to tackle the fucker!

hey, you might not have a direct scan of the interior of his brain that would allow you to observe the cogitations and data that indicate "extreme psychosis, cortisol levels rising, imminent intent to stab random strangers". but you see him salivating and staring at people and hear him ranting about his mother and god planting bugs under his skin or whatever.

so you do the right thing and try and stop him.

i mean, when you see a man whose an alcoholic, you already know his kids are highly likely to have the same genes. we could screen them! we could stop alcohol from being sold to these people, or at least make it incredibly difficult. we could show them their genomes, we could explain to them. we could scan their brains and detect addiction before it starts. we could do all this ethically, and only resort to coercion if they break laws and do serious damage to others. we are smart enough to pull this off without becoming nazis.

but of course, we're post modern liberals with a christian heritage and an ideological dedication to "FREEDUMB!" and capitalism and if you fucking dare say anything that's like, uncool, you will be shouted down by the crowd with their fucking holy mantra "ENJOYMENT!". like its their fucking sieg heil.

you know how much EASIER it would be for me to quit if the shops wouldnt sell me the cigarettes? fucking hell!

and the argument that it wouldnt be impossible for me to get them is only half the truth. making it that difficult would make my battle so much easier. it would massively increase the statistical odds for success.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:32 PM   #37405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
what are the most money making products? the addictive ones. Gambling, porn, cigarrettes, food/sugar, ALCOHOL worst of all. Cash rules everything around the USA.

Yup. Sugar is probably the worst drug in America. Porn has become so damned insidious that its seemingly evolving human sexuality into wild directions (not perversion wise, I could careless what gets people off so long as its not children or corpses, I'm talking about clinical addictions that cost people jobs, houses, families, yikes!). Alcohol is probably involved one way or another with at least HALF of ALL deaths in the US. Half of all homicides. Half of all fatal car crashes. Half of all disease related deaths. Whoa...

The example we try to teach our children so it sticks with them in the rest of their lives is that life is about making wise choices. dead_battery is wrong. Life does have meaning, purpose, and value. It has nothing to do with religion, metaphysics, politics, economics, ideologies, philosophies, none of it.. What is the meaning of life? Learning to make valuable choices and understanding that actions inherently have consequences. Shit, this is is Newton's Third Law. Every action has an equal and/or opposite reaction.

How to make life meaningful? Make good choices. How to make hell out of this life? Make bad decisions.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:37 PM   #37406
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it means shit to me. i will stake my lonely little patch of bitter fucking dirt and scream over and over again about all this, .

Have you read Patrick Suskind's Parfum? Its not only my ALL-TIME favorite novel, EVER, but I think its PERFECT FOR YOU. I think you will readily relate to the main character and the insights of the narrator. Read it. In fact, you should read all of Suskind's books, they all have that same sense of what I describe as being "optimistically negative (e.g. negative without being cynical or pessimistic).. Its a unique perspective which I've never quite read or seen in any other people, aside from possible the Russian Orthodox Nihilist Seraphim Rose.

 

And don't even remotely glance at the movie without having first read the book, the movie is good but doesn't have the same negative magic.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:39 PM   #37407
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good choices to me are a fucking vain pretension.

maybe they work as a kind of retrospective description of the way you lived. you chose a route to death that involved maximum peaceful co existence. you helped others, you worked and kept civilization going. you made things or fixed things or something. a good life.

this is what i want. but talking about choices and free will is folk psychological superstition, or just plain showing off.

talking about free will and choice as if they exist independently from reality, that thing which determines what options there are for a person, is just ethically irresponsible.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:42 PM   #37408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

How to make life meaningful? Make good choices. How to make hell out of this life? Make bad decisions.


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Old 04.04.2014, 03:42 PM   #37409
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Quote:
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Have you read Patrick Suskind's Parfum? Its not only my ALL-TIME favorite novel, EVER, but I think its PERFECT FOR YOU. I think you will readily relate to the main character and the insights of the narrator. Read it. In fact, you should read all of Suskind's books, they all have that same sense of what I describe as being "optimistically negative (e.g. negative without being cynical or pessimistic).. Its a unique perspective which I've never quite read or seen in any other people, aside from possible the Russian Orthodox Nihilist Seraphim Rose.

 

And don't even remotely glance at the movie without having first read the book, the movie is good but doesn't have the same negative magic.

never read it, although do know the film and the song very well.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:43 PM   #37410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
yeah yeah i hear this everywhere over and over again.

beauty - enjoyment. over and over again.

it means shit to me. i will stake my lonely little patch of bitter fucking dirt and scream over and over again about all this, and refuse to play the game of pretending to find an alternative but struggling and screaming about this shit until i annoy people so much they want to murder me.

if i die of lung cancer id like to have some tobacco exec kidnapped and someone to force my decomposing cancerous lungs down his fucking throat. that would be "enjoyable".

it makes me feel sick to even talk like i enjoy anything. and im pretty sure beauty and death are exactly the same thing for mammals like us.

It is not about beauty or enjoyment. making art is HARD WORK and not necessarily pleasurable. The joy comes from actively CREATING something.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:44 PM   #37411
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i think that when the addict wishes to quit, and chooses to quit, even though this is a delusion, THIS is his REAL free will as far as the term is useful. and so its incredibly cruel to tell him "fucking try harder".

the fact is the object of his addiction overpowers his real choice and his real desire, which for so many of us is to quit. it REALLY IS what we REALLY want, and it doesn't happen because of NEURO PHYSICAL processes and commercial systems that our will cannot overpower.

so again, i'll make the point that its my position that is the true defence of free will.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:45 PM   #37412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
telling a knife wielding maniac not to stab someone is not enough. you can't just go "well gee officer, i told him not to stab all those people, what more do you want from me?"

if you are there and you can see he's gonna do it you have to tackle the fucker!

hey, you might not have a direct scan of the interior of his brain that would allow you to observe the cogitations and data that indicate "extreme psychosis, cortisol levels rising, imminent intent to stab random strangers". but you see him salivating and staring at people and hear him ranting about his mother and god planting bugs under his skin or whatever.

so you do the right thing and try and stop him.

i mean, when you see a man whose an alcoholic, you already know his kids are highly likely to have the same genes. we could screen them! we could stop alcohol from being sold to these people, or at least make it incredibly difficult. we could show them their genomes, we could explain to them. we could scan their brains and detect addiction before it starts. we could do all this ethically, and only resort to coercion if they break laws and do serious damage to others. we are smart enough to pull this off without becoming nazis

yes, but i can't go to your house and take away your cigarettes and lock you up in a closet and feed you under the door. and you particularly showed up here expressing desperation.

this is not the official city fire brigade-- this is your neighbor handing you a water bucket.

from the distance, the best i can do is suggest a difficult hack: study your addiction reward system (from self-observation, from literature), then disconnect or replace each addiction reward circuit with benevolent ones, as you identify them. it is definitely not easy nor quick, and many people will still be fucked regardless, but if you were lucky enough to receive intelligent genes from your ancestors you stand a non-universal chance to save your ass-- a temporary, non-universal solution.

of course it doesn't end there-- the less capable are still being fucked, and we need social change, but who is going to fight for it if everyone is sick? i'm not suggesting you hack your addiction out of existence in order to "prove free will" but rather for sheer survival. then you can go and give the fuckers throat cancer and cackle over their sick corpses. but survival first.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:46 PM   #37413
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you have free will to choose whatever you want to do. Most people do not put their free will to use, instead just doing what is expected of them at every turn, because IT IS EASY
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:48 PM   #37414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
you have free will to choose whatever you want to do. Most people do not put their free will to use, instead just doing what is expected of them at every turn, because IT IS EASY

free will appears obvious when things are going your way.

when the tsunami is dragging you away, not so much.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:48 PM   #37415
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BTW, very few people get to "lie in a deathbed" regretting things and being proud of things. Most of us die quick, horrible, pointless deaths. THEREFORE, we should just live life as we see fit, without hurting other's ability to do the same.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:49 PM   #37416
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you're implying that i just need to want it more.

as if i dont want to never do it again or something? as if in the moment when i smoke, it's desire going "wrong". so i just need this magic x that will will make my desire be good.

it's not like that. we can't extricate ourselves from the catastrophe then talk about social change.

the points im making have to be intensified and screamed louder - and constantly, as a chorus by the people who are being hacked as they are being hacked. the process of addiction should not be silenced, because this is how society ignores/controls it and relegates it out of the picture.

in the same way that we had to see the cancerous lungs before we believed it, because the tobacco companies LIED for years and funded propaganda for their lies.

its useless to do the whole "repentant junkie" routine. i overcame it and so can you! buy my shitty book!

fuck that!
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:52 PM   #37417
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I like the green herb, and I enjoy a cigar now and then, and I enjoy quality food.

Those are my physical "vices" if you will. Any of these can kill me and I could give a fuck. It would be better than dying in an auto accident, because of some asshole's negligence, because of a fire, or because of a murder, or because a million reasons.

Some people are smokers and some are not. Just deal with it. If smoking does not give you pleasure any more, then don;t buy smokes. get rid of your smokes. stop hanging out with smokers. stop going to places where you would smoke. It is hard but so is learning how to eat pussy, and yet both are sooooo satisfying......
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:54 PM   #37418
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Quote:
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free will appears obvious when things are going your way.

when the tsunami is dragging you away, not so much.

I disagree. I'd say free-will becomes MOST apparent precisely when it is taken away by circumstance, because the people definitely don't WANT to be dragged away by the Tsunami. Simple way to discover free-will.. Tell a 3 year old, "No!" when they ask for something and see the reaction. That temper tantrum and pouting? Yeah. Consequence of free-will being denied gratification.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:54 PM   #37419
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it makes it so fucking comfortable for everybody when junkies die in slow silence and survivors talk about PERSONAL struggles and everyone congratulates their (imaginary) selves for their (imaginary) free will which they of course will exercise the right way because they're so fucking smart and awesome.

meanwhile the brain that you are blind to is doing its thing. producing the fiction you take as your self.

that brain is wandering around a fucking maze of addictive traps designed to turn it into a money acquiring then depositing machine. hacking it, using it up, leaving the ruins for all the other brains around it to suffer/clean up.

and the brains of rich people are sitting their rationalizing their detachment, pulling the levers, funding the schemes and traps, and bragging about their portfolios.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:56 PM   #37420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Some people are smokers and some are not. Just deal with it. If smoking does not give you pleasure any more, then don;t buy smokes. get rid of your smokes. stop hanging out with smokers. stop going to places where you would smoke.

no offence but no and fuck you!

i wont "deal with it" and i wont shut up.

i wont talk about this like its just up to me and thats it.

ive binned my smokes a hundred times! done all the things you suggest.
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