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Old 04.04.2014, 02:16 PM   #37361
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I smoked for 10 years, pack and half a day of REDS, or whatever cheap substitute I could get that was full flavor.

I quit because I got tired of having shortness of breath and paying what amounted to, (in 2003) to $3,000-$4,000 a YEAR on cigarrettes. (with the rise in taxes and the more than doubling of cig costs, it would cost about $11,000 to smoke that much in a year now. INSANE.

I am a libertarian when it comes to personal choice. We should all be free to do what we want with our bodies, and ingest what we want, and suffer the consequences.

remember that it is not tobacco per se that kill;s you, but the more than 300 different chemical additives put in cigarrettes to flavor the tobbaco, to make it burn FASTER so you have to buy more, to create "smoother" smoke particles, etc. That shit will kill you far sooner than tobbaco itself.

It is no one's business, much less any government, to tell you what you should ingest.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:16 PM   #37362
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i just cannot stop. the desire i have to stop is unbelievably strong.

its been proven that some people have genes that make them statistically unlikely to quit, and those without these genes can easily quit and have no problems.

we're advanced enough to understand this, so where are the screenings that prevent another life being ruined by alcohol or tobacco?

the right wing scum would get massive grants from corporate assholes to promote their "free choice and responsibility" agenda if we pushed too far against the profits of these fucking pieces of fucking shit. i wish i could form a terrorist cell and deliberately infect the tobacco company owners with lung cancer.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:17 PM   #37363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
My ass.

No, it's a stat I've come across a few times in various places. Maybe the numbers have changed in recent years.

BTW, only 20% smoke? That ad campaign really worked.


edit:
Center for Disease Control stuff:

http://www.cdc.gov/Tobacco/data_stat...acts/index.htm

do you really think half of americans smoke?
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:17 PM   #37364
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Percentage of U.S. adults aged 18 years or older who were current cigarette smokers in 2012:7
  • 18.1% of all adults (42.1 million people): 20.1% of males, 14.5% of females
  • 21.8% of non-Hispanic American Indians/Alaska Natives
  • 19.7% of non-Hispanic Whites
  • 18.1% of non-Hispanic Blacks
  • 12.5% of Hispanics
  • 10.7% of non-Hispanic Asians (excluding Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders)
  • 26.1% of multiple race individuals
Notes:
  • Current smokers are defined as persons who reported smoking at least 100 cigarettes during their lifetime and who, at the time of interview, reported smoking every day or some days.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:19 PM   #37365
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I believed you. I was just surprised.

I remember when I was a kid, it was weird when an adult wasn't a smoker.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:19 PM   #37366
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so 42 million adults smoke. around 400,000 die each year from smoking (which includes many who do not currently smoke but who smoked in the past)

it is far far less than the number of deaths attributable to alcohol, yet when the US tried banning that it got us organized crime, which has never left.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:19 PM   #37367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
we know from neuroscience that we basically have no free will or intentionality, but that it evolved as a way for us to take social responsibility of behaviours, which obviously is a vitally important tool that has lots of benefits and survival mechanisms built into it.

right-- it's not that free will doesn't exist, it's that it's LIMITED.

you can't quit smoking and go on a diet and exercise and work on a big project deadline or final exams and deal with a hostile work environment and relationship failures all at the same time. it's fucking impossible. there is only so much self-control available during the day (you have more when you're fresh, less when you're tired, which is why people tend to gorge themselves with pizza in the evenings).

this "free will" (or whatever) requires judicious management so that it can hit the critical points of the enemy instead of punching everyone everywhere all the time. automate most things and focus on the one thing.

this is of course not a cure-all. life is still fucked in millions of ways. but it's a way to manage the small portion of things one can manage.

and of course changing your environment helps a lot. it's much easier to quit smoking in boulder than in las vegas. the "individual" is overrated.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:19 PM   #37368
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rob your thinking on this is wrong. its not about "telling you" what to do. that's authoritarian fantasising. its the male fantasy of supernatural will. its a power trip. and its bullshit.

we have hard data to prove that its bullshit, and that there are genes and neuro-bio configurations in which you the body will do a certain thing. free will is a chimera.

its fucking simple for me to say "i just wont drink alcohol anymore." and i dont! i rarely even think about it. theres a 12pack of beers downstairs and its sat there for months.

but alcoholics? its not the same for them. their brains and bodies are different. i cant transpose my neuro/bio set up as the default setting for humanity.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:24 PM   #37369
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free will is real, whether you choose to think so or not. Otherwise no human advancement would ever occur.

addiction is addiction. No matter the substance or activity. Studies have shown that among drugs, nicotine is the single hardest drug to kick, harder than heroin, harder than crack.

I did it though, and I am glad I did.

I did that shit cold turkey.

your free will decides whether you start smoking or not, but your genetics determine how fast you are addicted. it all goes hand in hand.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:25 PM   #37370
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I wold never tell someone to quit. It's their life to live as they see fit.
I help those who are quitting, and I never ever throw their addiction in their face.

Like all things, there comes a point where the benefits are outweighed by the negatives.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:27 PM   #37371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
right-- it's not that free will doesn't exist, it's that it's LIMITED.

you can't quit smoking and go on a diet and exercise and work on a big project deadline or final exams and deal with a hostile work environment and relationship failures all at the same time. it's fucking impossible. there is only so much self-control available during the day (you have more when you're fresh, less when you're tired, which is why people tend to gorge themselves with pizza in the evenings).

this "free will" (or whatever) requires judicious management so that it can hit the critical points of the enemy instead of punching everyone everywhere all the time. automate most things and focus on the one thing.

this is of course not a cure-all. life is still fucked in millions of ways. but it's a way to manage the small portion of things one can manage.

and of course changing your environment helps a lot. it's much easier to quit smoking in boulder than in las vegas. the "individual" is overrated.

unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:30 PM   #37372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
but alcoholics? its not the same for them. their brains and bodies are different. i cant transpose my neuro/bio set up as the default setting for humanity.

cigarettes are stimulants, alcohol is a depressant.

i don't mean to oversimplify your dna but it would seem like you have a "problem" with low dopamine. not you alone-- you and your environment. i.e., your environment requires a dopamine level that you must supplement with cigarettes in order to function.

i used to drink more when i was doing stuff i hated. now i don't have to. i still have a "problem" with low dopamine (vs. the usual requirements) but i manage.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:32 PM   #37373
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i mean, we are literally wandering about in desperation for money, working and hustling in whatever way we can, and then we're being neurologically hijacked by highly sophisticated drugs - tobacco, junk food etc. and it gives us intense pleasure because of what it does to our brains. it also destroys us slowly, so we walk around in this sublime mixture of fear and craving - I WANT TO FUCKING QUIT I'M KILLING MYSELF IM TERRIFIED! we also want to HAVE IT really really fucking badly. we are machines telling each other stories that are totally fictional about our dedication to quit. it's a nightmare. the only way out is death. and death tastes good.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:33 PM   #37374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
cigarettes are stimulants, alcohol is a depressant.

i don't mean to oversimplify your dna but it would seem like you have a "problem" with low dopamine. not you alone-- you and your environment. i.e., your environment requires a dopamine level that you must supplement with cigarettes in order to function.

i used to drink more when i was doing stuff i hated. now i don't have to. i still have a "problem" with low dopamine (vs. the usual requirements) but i manage.

its not a matter of simply getting "more" dopamine. the science doesn't work that way. i dont understand it but i know that the way we talk about dopamine in mass culture is just not accurate.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:35 PM   #37375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.

right, but it's a theory-- a big one-- that has yet to be proven or disproven.

meanwhile, the animal wants to quit smoking but can't.

but since the universe has yet to be deciphered, you might as well try an empirical approach in the meantime-- see what has worked for others and try it for yourself (within reason-- i won't try religion, for example). there are a myriad methods and one might work for you. eventually, if nothing works, you can at least say that you have proof that trying is futile.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:36 PM   #37376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
unfortunately we have zero proof that it even exists.

ZERO.

we have literally no scientific data that even hints that intentionality is anything other than an EXPERIENCE. no data that suggests ANY causal power for the phenomenon we call self.

its possible we could come across some. but i wouldnt hold my fucking breath!

scott bakker writes about this and is terrified of his own theories. but he has not been proven wrong. sure, the vast majority of people selling books or performing their careers will tell you otherwise, but bakkers theories can shoot them down everytime. he has a complete theory of consciousness which will either be proven or disproved by future empirical tests.

this is what makes me such a nihilist.

we are literally trapped in a machine that thinks, that can only think of itself, as having powers that it does not posses. bakkers theories explain exactly why this has occurred and why evolution rigged us this way.

therefore, not only do we have no intentionality or self whatsoever, we can't even get this idea across to each other without horrifying each other. capitalism exploits us knowing full well that free will is a consumer existentialist myth, and capitalism is getting smarter and smarter in how it engineers those burgers to hijack the brain of the human cattle in its consumer pens. the system works by profiting off knowledge that the vast majority of people are ignorant of and will REFUSE to believe! even though its true!

we will never admit that this freedom we have is a sham, and society will simultaneously ENCOURAGE this delusion as it also exploits us using science based on the truth that we don't have a self.

we can't admit it to each other socially because we're animals and it's a sign of weakness. we're fucking screwed. the truth is brutal.

Like all things that cannot be "verified" you either act as if it is real or act as if it is not, but it does not define the issue. if you act like you have free will, then you will show free will. if you choose to act as if free will does not exist, then you have exercised free will to do so.

either way, free will is real.

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of what we actively engage in, but that does not make it unreal. It is a very interesting philosophical conversation though.

Mr. Bakker exercised his free will in choosing to write about the non-existence of free will. (edit)
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:40 PM   #37377
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that's post modernism 1.0. we bluff and play for time "but you DON'T KNOW!".

that's over now. now we do know.

ive tried A LOT.

there's nothing out there left for me to try.

i really resent the idea i should feel like i need to take personal responsibility for this situation. i think that is a subtle form of abuse. an ideology by which the slave/resources of consumer society are made to take societies failure onto their own backs. like a slave being told his lot in life is between him and god.

people are making MONEY off me being isolated and addicted. society tolerates it. we all collaborate with this system because we have no other choice.

and we spend our days therapizing each other "you can do it! try exercise yoga fruit juice blah blah fucking blah". selling ourselves to lifestyles and products.

the evil has to stop. somehow, we have to find a way to stop people profiting off each other in this way.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:41 PM   #37378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Like all things that cannot be "verified" you either act as if it is real or act as if it is not, but it does not define the issue. if you act like you have free will, then you will show free will. if you choose to act as if free will does not exist, then you have exercised free will to do so.

either way, free will is real.

It may only apply to a tiny fraction of what we actively engage in, but that does not make it unreal. It is a very interesting philosophical conversation though.

Mr. Bakker exercised his free will in choosing to write about the non-existence of free will. (edit)

you have nothing but semantics here. meanwhile neuroscience has a brain that shows absolutely zero capacity for free will or intention whatsoever.

is what you are saying even possible as a thing that i could "do"? i dont think so.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:42 PM   #37379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
its not a matter of simply getting "more" dopamine. the science doesn't work that way. i dont understand it but i know that the way we talk about dopamine in mass culture is just not accurate.

what i'm saying is that cigarettes provide you with something. what is that exactly? phenomenologically? biochemically? symbolically? behaviorally? socially?

if you can figure out what are the multiple payoffs, you can hack the mechanisms so that the animal gets the same or similar payoffs from other less "evil" (as you call them) sources.

cigarette companies are not omnipotent beings that cannot be defeated. they arrived to their formulas through trial an error, not through total control of the universe. their executives are whistling in the dark just like everyone else. they hack the animal, the animal hacks back.
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Old 04.04.2014, 02:43 PM   #37380
dead_battery
expwy. to yr skull
 
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imagine the fucking impossibility of the political project i am advocating here.

telling people the truth - they have no self, intentionality or free will, then trying to organize ourselves in such a way to put a stop to what are highly profitable drug selling operations. the very things that allow us a (momentarily) pleasurable sensation of death
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