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Old 04.04.2014, 04:02 PM   #37341
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the fire found us. the cigarettes smoke us. etc.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:02 PM   #37342
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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
this is american hyper-individualism, and while it makes sense on the surface, it doesn't accurately reflect the way things are. life is difficult and reality is complicated. our choices and behavior are constantly being shaped by our environment. the individual doesn't exist in a vacuum. actually, the individual is defined by society. how can society define the individual and then disappear out of existence?

defining the individual is not what we are talking about. we are talking about the act of purchasing smokes, lighting one up, and inhaling it's smoke. you wanna stop? don't DO IT ANYMORE. If you cannot do that, then you need help doing it, and there is no shame in asking for help.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:03 PM   #37343
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you can all tell me OVER AND OVER AGAIN to deal with this as an individual and i can just stop listening or responding to this fucking redundant shit. as if i need to be told this.

do it yourself, make a choice. blah blah fucking blah.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:04 PM   #37344
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Originally Posted by dead_battery
good choices to me are a fucking vain pretension.

maybe they work as a kind of retrospective description of the way you lived. you chose a route to death that involved maximum peaceful co existence. you helped others, you worked and kept civilization going. you made things or fixed things or something. a good life.

this is what i want. but talking about choices and free will is folk psychological superstition, or just plain showing off.

talking about free will and choice as if they exist independently from reality, that thing which determines what options there are for a person, is just ethically irresponsible.

No good choices are about simple math. If (a) than (b).. If (a) people ingest plants/substances which are biologically harmful to homeostasis, then (b) there will be biologically negative consequences. If (a) people make destructive decisions in their relationships with other humans then (b) those abused humans will react or retaliate in a negative way. If (a) we make decisions to hurt ourselves psychologically with negative or self-defeating thought processes or internal dialogue, then (b) we will gradually erode and destroy ourselves.

The meaning of life is to make good decisions. Not in some kind vain, self-seeking way, humans evolutionarily speaking or social creatures, we can't survive independent of other humans. If we make decisions that hurt other humans out of selfishness, we are actually hurting ourselves. Hence, making better decisions improves life.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:05 PM   #37345
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
defining the individual is not what we are talking about. we are talking about the act of purchasing smokes, lighting one up, and inhaling it's smoke. you wanna stop? don't DO IT ANYMORE. If you cannot do that, then you need help doing it, and there is no shame in asking for help.

its not about me. its a collective problem and theres a collective solution. i am not fucking interested in being told AGAIN that i need to deal with it individually. how many fucking times do you guys want to tell me this, like it even means anything?
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:05 PM   #37346
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never said you should shut up. I like conversing with you.

I am saying that the energy you put forth railing against the system set up to fuck you, is better served in active decisions and choices that would benefit you.
.

no. part of it maybe, but not all.


he has enough energy to survive and then some.

he probably needs a little more energy towards survival but his social criticism is far from futile.

no fucking way.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:06 PM   #37347
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the meaning of male vanity is to make good decisions and brag and boast about them and lecture others on them.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:06 PM   #37348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
you can all tell me OVER AND OVER AGAIN to deal with this as an individual and i can just stop listening or responding to this fucking redundant shit. as if i need to be told this.

do it yourself, make a choice. blah blah fucking blah.

so why do you NOT DO IT then? Your answer to that is a personal thing, not applicable to anyone else.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:07 PM   #37349
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vanity does not discount a good decision
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:07 PM   #37350
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im not asking anyone for anything. and i also do not need to be talked to about my individual choices over and over again as if that makes them more real.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:07 PM   #37351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
no. part of it maybe, but not all.


he has enough energy to survive and then some.

he probably needs a little more energy towards survival but his social criticism is far from futile.

no fucking way.

never said it was futile. just that it does not help his personal ciscumstances and personal cig addiction
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:07 PM   #37352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
defining the individual is not what we are talking about. we are talking about the act of purchasing smokes, lighting one up, and inhaling it's smoke. you wanna stop? don't DO IT ANYMORE. If you cannot do that, then you need help doing it, and there is no shame in asking for help.
that's overly reductionist.

if life was that easy, we would have no addicts, everyone would be rich, and we'd always have nice weather.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:08 PM   #37353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
im not asking anyone for anything. and i also do not need to be talked to about my individual choices over and over again as if that makes them more real.

Your choices are only as real as you choose to see them
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:08 PM   #37354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
that's overly reductionist.

if life was that easy, we would have no addicts, everyone would be rich, and we'd always have nice weather.

wrong, I was being specific to one individual, not the whole of society.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:08 PM   #37355
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
so why do you NOT DO IT then? Your answer to that is a personal thing, not applicable to anyone else.

because the sequence of words that (does not) constitute me is only an expression of a brain that is doing things on its own. the words come after the brains "decisions", which is just a description of its processes.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:09 PM   #37356
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
never said it was futile. just that it does not help his personal ciscumstances and personal cig addiction

but you're enshrining the "personal" above all which is very culturally american and probably more so exacerbated in texas.

if you were in p.r. you'd probably be thinking more about the family. "smoking is bad for me but lets me work harder which is good for my family."
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:10 PM   #37357
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my brain is addicted. the cigarettes are there. the brain and the cigarettes are linked by smoking.

the brain and the body and the cigarettes are all linked in a commodity structure. people who are designated the job of producing profit use the cigarettes to access the brain and make it exchange money for them. the whole things a loop. the brain "craves" the cigarettes in so far as
smoking and the inhalation of the chemicals cause it to be physically altered. both objects are attracted to each other because of the death drive i suppose.

i do not need to smoke, i do not want to smoke. but people want me to, and the company that sells the things needs me to to continue existing.
all of us exist in a society that organizes itself so that i smoke and they collect the profit. it goes on and it causes disease, misery etc. it wastes lives and potential. it makes things worse for all of us.

we know that a brain like mine works in certain ways. we statistically measure what happens to it, and we find that it smokes. we are learning about how the process of addiction works - what causes and conditions make the smoking continue, and what would make it stop.

of course, finding out how to cure addiction is not in the interests of any company, because selling drugs is a faster way to make profit. r&d for cures for addiction is expensive. you need profit to try. and if you succeed, it only happens because someone thinks that this cure can become profitable. but if it fucks with the profit of loads of other industries, which are way more profitable, well then you're gonna have a fucking problem.

the ultimate irony would be them hiring an assassin that was also a junkie. quite likely really.

why the fuck would our society cure addiction? its just not as profitable as engineering new products to addict people to. which is what we are LITERALLY DOING. fucking burgers are engineered scientifically to addict us now! this is fact and not some conspiracy theory!

talking about free will is literally doing freelance work for these assholes!

talk about free will all you want. at the end of the day the statistics describe what really goes on. we can use the statistical data to free the addicted brain from its miserable trap.

it IS possible.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:10 PM   #37358
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Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
n

the one thing that differentiates us from the animals is our ability to make our decisions based on conscious thought as opposed to sensory reflex. That is what is referrred to by the concept of free will. without free will human would never have mastered fire, would never have been able to create agriculture, or any of the many things which make our lives possible the way they are.

Don't diss animals like that, haven't you ever had a dog or a cat? They are not mechanical, they are sentient beings. They make willful decisions based on their own cognition and consciousness. Elephants can paint imaginary pictures. Apes can express complex emotions through sign language. Parrots can learn to do algebra. How is it that humans continually forget that, duh, WE ARE ANIMALS, so any traits we see in ourselves logically must also exist in other animals. We share the same physiology. Further, animals have skills we couldn't fathom. Echolocation? Thermal imaging? Sensitivity to electromagnetism or gravity? Sometimes animals make us look all the more stupid and helpless really..
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:14 PM   #37359
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my brain is addicted. the cigarettes are there. the brain and the cigarettes are linked by smoking.

That is also not entirely true. Smoking must be definition be more than just physiological addiction to the chemical of nicotine because if that were the case, then simply taking nicotine gum/pills would solve addiction, YET folks still crave CIGARETTES even when ingesting nicotine. Smoking is matter than of culture as much as biology.
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Old 04.04.2014, 04:25 PM   #37360
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
That is also not entirely true. Smoking must be definition be more than just physiological addiction to the chemical of nicotine because if that were the case, then simply taking nicotine gum/pills would solve addiction, YET folks still crave CIGARETTES even when ingesting nicotine. Smoking is matter than of culture as much as biology.

you are right, but culture is not the whole picture. its a small contributing factor, but simply talking about culture keeps the idea of free will alive.

the neurological reality OVERPOWERS culture. you can hear all the bullshit about free will and positive thinking blah blah blah but the fucking addicted brain does not get such an intense sensation from that that its addictive pathways are deactivated.

the society is organized so that consumers live in pens that are like experimental labs allowing profit seekers to maximize the techniques used to get all the fucking cash in your hands into their pockets.

this is, believe it or not, a problem for all of us, even the people making the profit.
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