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Old 04.04.2014, 03:14 PM   #37281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
the fact is - we HAVE to recognize this as a collective ethical catastrophe and not an individual personal problem to be overcome by adjustment to life in a way that makes us hedonic and compliant.

of course you're right, but this is no cure for your immediate problem.

it's like having a house fire and complaining that the town lacks a properly funded fire department. all well and good! but first you have to make it to the city council alive to make that point.

and don't forget that the grassroots can also defeat top-down approaches. anti-smoking "fascism" (as it's called by its opponents, including me at one time) in america is growing by leaps and bounds thanks to a social movement that started with a few individuals and is now an established force.

consider then that when you quit smoking you remove a profit center from your enemies. when you teach that to someone else you remove two. then they teach that to someone else, and things can grow exponentially. yes, the struggles are infinite and endless but they have to be fought regardless, no?
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:16 PM   #37282
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yes. but as long as we decide it begins and ends with individuals not partaking, and structures that encourage and develop new addictions remain in place, we are fighting the same battle over and over again and never really getting anywhere.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:19 PM   #37283
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lets say i quit - and lets say i dont die of an illness caused by all the damage i've already done. well good for me.

it just means the system that targeted me is now targeting another victim.

i was the kid who said i'd never smoke. i was the good kid who understood the rational arguments, understood that it was a fucking idiotic idea. i was very well educated.

and look what happened!

and of course everyone says "well that was your choice!".

post christian morality, we're all confronted with heaven and hell every moment and where we end up is entirely our responsibility.

something tells me that secular versions of this fantasy DO NOT WORK and DO NOT ACTUALLY STOP the fucking problem of addiction from occurring no matter how appealing and sensible they might sound.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:20 PM   #37284
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you can't dangle something as appealing as a prohibited and intensely enjoyable way to die in front of a fucking human and expect them not to bite, then condemn them when they do! that's fucking sick!

then lecture them over and over again about how its all their free will and their choice! we're fucking dying animals! all we do is die! give us a way to do it that feels good and you can bet your fucking ass we'll take it! how could we resist?
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:23 PM   #37285
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btw im not trying to rant at symbol or anyone else specifically here
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:23 PM   #37286
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im not saying that you should quit your social struggles. actually i find reading your comments refreshing but not just at the entertainment level, but rather-- in a way gets my brain unstuck from programming, i.e., excessive focus on the individual. and this influences my everyday choices and actions.

BUT there is an individual front regardless. you either fight it or abandon it. the fight doesn't end in that particular front, but who would you rather have occupying that biopower station? The merchants of death?
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:24 PM   #37287
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yes i know.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:25 PM   #37288
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fine. then lets not even talk about the individual perspective anymore.

you don't HAVE to bring it back to me in post after post.

-

seriously though - if saying "you have free will and its your own choice" sounds and perhaps even is quite sensible, but it in fact does not actually do anything to make the plague of addiction cease, then there is an ethical failure in not going further than that.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:29 PM   #37289
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the individual perspective is the one your house fire needs though. you can't wait until the city sees common sense and forms a fire brigade. aren't you desperate to quit? you quitting does not disqualify defeating the drug peddlers. there is more than one way to destroy them.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:29 PM   #37290
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ps- unless you wanna martyr yourself. but i don't think people will notice.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:32 PM   #37291
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telling a knife wielding maniac not to stab someone is not enough. you can't just go "well gee officer, i told him not to stab all those people, what more do you want from me?"

if you are there and you can see he's gonna do it you have to tackle the fucker!

hey, you might not have a direct scan of the interior of his brain that would allow you to observe the cogitations and data that indicate "extreme psychosis, cortisol levels rising, imminent intent to stab random strangers". but you see him salivating and staring at people and hear him ranting about his mother and god planting bugs under his skin or whatever.

so you do the right thing and try and stop him.

i mean, when you see a man whose an alcoholic, you already know his kids are highly likely to have the same genes. we could screen them! we could stop alcohol from being sold to these people, or at least make it incredibly difficult. we could show them their genomes, we could explain to them. we could scan their brains and detect addiction before it starts. we could do all this ethically, and only resort to coercion if they break laws and do serious damage to others. we are smart enough to pull this off without becoming nazis.

but of course, we're post modern liberals with a christian heritage and an ideological dedication to "FREEDUMB!" and capitalism and if you fucking dare say anything that's like, uncool, you will be shouted down by the crowd with their fucking holy mantra "ENJOYMENT!". like its their fucking sieg heil.

you know how much EASIER it would be for me to quit if the shops wouldnt sell me the cigarettes? fucking hell!

and the argument that it wouldnt be impossible for me to get them is only half the truth. making it that difficult would make my battle so much easier. it would massively increase the statistical odds for success.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:32 PM   #37292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
what are the most money making products? the addictive ones. Gambling, porn, cigarrettes, food/sugar, ALCOHOL worst of all. Cash rules everything around the USA.

Yup. Sugar is probably the worst drug in America. Porn has become so damned insidious that its seemingly evolving human sexuality into wild directions (not perversion wise, I could careless what gets people off so long as its not children or corpses, I'm talking about clinical addictions that cost people jobs, houses, families, yikes!). Alcohol is probably involved one way or another with at least HALF of ALL deaths in the US. Half of all homicides. Half of all fatal car crashes. Half of all disease related deaths. Whoa...

The example we try to teach our children so it sticks with them in the rest of their lives is that life is about making wise choices. dead_battery is wrong. Life does have meaning, purpose, and value. It has nothing to do with religion, metaphysics, politics, economics, ideologies, philosophies, none of it.. What is the meaning of life? Learning to make valuable choices and understanding that actions inherently have consequences. Shit, this is is Newton's Third Law. Every action has an equal and/or opposite reaction.

How to make life meaningful? Make good choices. How to make hell out of this life? Make bad decisions.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:37 PM   #37293
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Originally Posted by dead_battery
it means shit to me. i will stake my lonely little patch of bitter fucking dirt and scream over and over again about all this, .

Have you read Patrick Suskind's Parfum? Its not only my ALL-TIME favorite novel, EVER, but I think its PERFECT FOR YOU. I think you will readily relate to the main character and the insights of the narrator. Read it. In fact, you should read all of Suskind's books, they all have that same sense of what I describe as being "optimistically negative (e.g. negative without being cynical or pessimistic).. Its a unique perspective which I've never quite read or seen in any other people, aside from possible the Russian Orthodox Nihilist Seraphim Rose.

 

And don't even remotely glance at the movie without having first read the book, the movie is good but doesn't have the same negative magic.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:39 PM   #37294
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good choices to me are a fucking vain pretension.

maybe they work as a kind of retrospective description of the way you lived. you chose a route to death that involved maximum peaceful co existence. you helped others, you worked and kept civilization going. you made things or fixed things or something. a good life.

this is what i want. but talking about choices and free will is folk psychological superstition, or just plain showing off.

talking about free will and choice as if they exist independently from reality, that thing which determines what options there are for a person, is just ethically irresponsible.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:42 PM   #37295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

How to make life meaningful? Make good choices. How to make hell out of this life? Make bad decisions.


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Old 04.04.2014, 03:42 PM   #37296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
Have you read Patrick Suskind's Parfum? Its not only my ALL-TIME favorite novel, EVER, but I think its PERFECT FOR YOU. I think you will readily relate to the main character and the insights of the narrator. Read it. In fact, you should read all of Suskind's books, they all have that same sense of what I describe as being "optimistically negative (e.g. negative without being cynical or pessimistic).. Its a unique perspective which I've never quite read or seen in any other people, aside from possible the Russian Orthodox Nihilist Seraphim Rose.

 

And don't even remotely glance at the movie without having first read the book, the movie is good but doesn't have the same negative magic.

never read it, although do know the film and the song very well.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:43 PM   #37297
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Originally Posted by dead_battery
yeah yeah i hear this everywhere over and over again.

beauty - enjoyment. over and over again.

it means shit to me. i will stake my lonely little patch of bitter fucking dirt and scream over and over again about all this, and refuse to play the game of pretending to find an alternative but struggling and screaming about this shit until i annoy people so much they want to murder me.

if i die of lung cancer id like to have some tobacco exec kidnapped and someone to force my decomposing cancerous lungs down his fucking throat. that would be "enjoyable".

it makes me feel sick to even talk like i enjoy anything. and im pretty sure beauty and death are exactly the same thing for mammals like us.

It is not about beauty or enjoyment. making art is HARD WORK and not necessarily pleasurable. The joy comes from actively CREATING something.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:44 PM   #37298
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i think that when the addict wishes to quit, and chooses to quit, even though this is a delusion, THIS is his REAL free will as far as the term is useful. and so its incredibly cruel to tell him "fucking try harder".

the fact is the object of his addiction overpowers his real choice and his real desire, which for so many of us is to quit. it REALLY IS what we REALLY want, and it doesn't happen because of NEURO PHYSICAL processes and commercial systems that our will cannot overpower.

so again, i'll make the point that its my position that is the true defence of free will.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:45 PM   #37299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dead_battery
telling a knife wielding maniac not to stab someone is not enough. you can't just go "well gee officer, i told him not to stab all those people, what more do you want from me?"

if you are there and you can see he's gonna do it you have to tackle the fucker!

hey, you might not have a direct scan of the interior of his brain that would allow you to observe the cogitations and data that indicate "extreme psychosis, cortisol levels rising, imminent intent to stab random strangers". but you see him salivating and staring at people and hear him ranting about his mother and god planting bugs under his skin or whatever.

so you do the right thing and try and stop him.

i mean, when you see a man whose an alcoholic, you already know his kids are highly likely to have the same genes. we could screen them! we could stop alcohol from being sold to these people, or at least make it incredibly difficult. we could show them their genomes, we could explain to them. we could scan their brains and detect addiction before it starts. we could do all this ethically, and only resort to coercion if they break laws and do serious damage to others. we are smart enough to pull this off without becoming nazis

yes, but i can't go to your house and take away your cigarettes and lock you up in a closet and feed you under the door. and you particularly showed up here expressing desperation.

this is not the official city fire brigade-- this is your neighbor handing you a water bucket.

from the distance, the best i can do is suggest a difficult hack: study your addiction reward system (from self-observation, from literature), then disconnect or replace each addiction reward circuit with benevolent ones, as you identify them. it is definitely not easy nor quick, and many people will still be fucked regardless, but if you were lucky enough to receive intelligent genes from your ancestors you stand a non-universal chance to save your ass-- a temporary, non-universal solution.

of course it doesn't end there-- the less capable are still being fucked, and we need social change, but who is going to fight for it if everyone is sick? i'm not suggesting you hack your addiction out of existence in order to "prove free will" but rather for sheer survival. then you can go and give the fuckers throat cancer and cackle over their sick corpses. but survival first.
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Old 04.04.2014, 03:46 PM   #37300
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you have free will to choose whatever you want to do. Most people do not put their free will to use, instead just doing what is expected of them at every turn, because IT IS EASY
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