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Old 07.31.2006, 01:19 PM   #41
lunberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atari 2600
I am with you in a belief in God, but God is in no way "supernatural." God is manifested in Natural Law. All living systems & all matter in the Universe is ultimately, One and all the energy in the Universe equals exactly zero which is proven by the Law of Conservation of Matter & Energy, thus rendering you use of the prefix "super-" extraneous & potentially misleading.

What's the deal with energy here ? I find it suspect when people bring physics into it and try to explain religious stuff... when it has nothing to do with it...
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Old 07.31.2006, 01:30 PM   #42
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I'd say physics have a lot to do with the existence of God actually. They're fixed laws that come out of absolutely nowhere. They change throughout space, true, but they change according to arch-laws. Seems a little bit, well, completely impossible. When I say "an architect must have designed them," I'm not ignoring the abilities of science. I just don't think science will ever be able to discover where science's second highest law (physics) came from. When I think of the laws of physics, there is no doubt in my mind as to the existence of God.
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:48 PM   #43
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i can't decide whether i'm atheist or agnostic
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acousticrock87
Well first of all, you have to realize that if someone tells you that a faith like Christianity is "soothing," there is a severe lack of understanding somewhere. In order to believe in a heaven, you have to believe in a hell. Jokes aside, hell is one of the scariest possibilities imaginable. Even if you believe you're going to heaven, the thought of others going to hell cancels out any form of comfort contained in the religion. Religion is not soothing by any means, unless you choose to manipulate it like that.

The other thing is, I know what you're saying about people claiming to know the one true religion. For one person to say "you're wrong, I'm right" is pressumptuous and unconfirmable. However, someone is right. Not two different beliefs can be correct. You can have a belief that everything is correct, or that two beliefs are correct (as long as they don't contradict, which is difficult), but you cannot believe that one person who believes in Islam and disbelieves Hinduism, another person who believes Hinduism and disbelieves Islam, and a third person who has picked and chosen different areas in each to believe or disbelieve, are all correct. They may all be plausable, but either one is correct, or they're all wrong. We can discover one that makes a lot of sense relative to the others, we just can't know for sure.

You do NOT have to beleive in a hell to beleive in a heaven. Jews do not believe in hell, but they believe in heaven. Jews beleive everyone will go to heaven and that there is no permanant abode for the evil and wicked. "Hell" is a purely Christian theory.
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:54 PM   #45
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I think, by definition, that would make you agnostic, right? If you can't decide? Or is that the joke ?
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:55 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touch me i'm sick
i can't decide whether i'm atheist or agnostic

Just decide whether you're a sheep or a human with a will & a mind and you should be okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunberg
I find it suspect when people bring physics into it...

It's Lundeberg (Helen) or Ljungberg (Freddie), for one thing & something tells me you'll end up screaming at the wall like Camus. Find it "suspect" all you want, but the facts are that the core truths of physics aren't really theoretical, & although quantum physics raises more questions than answers in some regards, Relativity proves God's existence in many ways.

When Newton first formulated his world-changing laws of motion ushering in the Industrial Revolution, Science felt like it had Nature licked. Nietzsche echoed that "God is Dead." Then a British geologist named John Michell came along about a century later & postulated black holes & then in the early 20th century came the absolutely stunning revolutions in our approach with Einstein who formulated Natural Laws that, unlike Newton's, also worked in a vacuum & can be applied everywhere throughout the universe. But the theories also raised many questions again. From his work, Schwartzchild & Bohr & many others went on to more wondrous discoveries, but no one has ever or will ever stumble upon a unified theory that unites Einstein's Gravity with the other forces like electromagnetism & the strong & weak nuclear force. Gravitrons seem to be the area right now where we are slowly learning more; in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead. This truth, that God is easier to behold now due to modern physics than ever before in history, is quite ironic considering the general level of consciousness & the intelligence of the average person on the planet and perhaps one fine day, the political philosophers will pay for their crimes.
The future of the Earth depends on many things, but perhaps most chiefly, the quality of our educations will play the most important role.
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:55 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atari 2600
Just decide whether you're a sheep or a human with a will & a mind and you should be okay.

thanks everythings a bit clearer now
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcoffee
You do NOT have to beleive in a hell to beleive in a heaven. Jews do not believe in hell, but they believe in heaven. Jews beleive everyone will go to heaven and that there is no permanaent abode for the evil and wicked. "Hell" is a purely Christian theory.

Sheol, my man.
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Old 07.31.2006, 03:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipslikewindows
Sheol, my man.

I'm the "Sheol" Man.
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acousticrock87
Well first of all, you have to realize that if someone tells you that a faith like Christianity is "soothing," there is a severe lack of understanding somewhere. In order to believe in a heaven, you have to believe in a hell. Jokes aside, hell is one of the scariest possibilities imaginable. Even if you believe you're going to heaven, the thought of others going to hell cancels out any form of comfort contained in the religion. Religion is not soothing by any means, unless you choose to manipulate it like that.

The other thing is, I know what you're saying about people claiming to know the one true religion. For one person to say "you're wrong, I'm right" is pressumptuous and unconfirmable. However, someone is right. Not two different beliefs can be correct. You can have a belief that everything is correct, or that two beliefs are correct (as long as they don't contradict, which is difficult), but you cannot believe that one person who believes in Islam and disbelieves Hinduism, another person who believes Hinduism and disbelieves Islam, and a third person who has picked and chosen different areas in each to believe or disbelieve, are all correct. They may all be plausable, but either one is correct, or they're all wrong. We can discover one that makes a lot of sense relative to the others, we just can't know for sure.

Also, people who believe they will go to heaven after they die may or may not be perturbed by the idea of others going to hell. They might have freinds who do not share their faith who they may beleive will go to Hell for not accepting Christ or whatever the reason. This could make them very uncomfortable. I know if my friends would go to a horrible torturous pit of despair and darkness for all eternity while I'm sitting up on a nice, warm puffy cloud would rip my heart in twain. But then again, what if we knew Hitler, Mussolini, Jeffrey Dahmer, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Osama Bin Laden and all these other disgustingly evil and hateful, violent people were to go to hell, it make us all feel a lot better. So the theories of who would go to hell and who would go to heaven really don't mean a whole lot to most people. Most people believe that if you are kind and good natured (no matter what faith you may belong to) and you live your life properly (according to our human laws rather than the religious scriptures) you will be rewarded in the afterlife. It is only a minority of fanatically religious people who blindly think that their faith is the one true faith and that all other people will go to hell if they don't accept this "one true faith".
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:20 PM   #51
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That's actually not true at all. Christianity is actually founded on the idea that living a good life gets you NOWHERE whatsoever. It's the fanatics that have turned it around. Even a cursory reading of what Jesus said in the Gospels demonstrates that being morally upright is, in the end worthless in God's eyes (as well as completely impossible).

And it's not a matter of "if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell", though it's been turned into that. It's "Hell is a place for people who don't want to be with God." So obviously, if someone doesn't want to be with God, that's where they would go (assuming Christianity were true).

As far as who it would make me happy to see in hell? The answer is absolutely no one. To be honest, and I'm not trying to be controversial, if I died and woke up in heaven, it would break my heart with joy to see Hitler there too. But that's not to say that he wouldn't be changed. Or that everyone else there (including me) wouldn't be too.
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:36 PM   #52
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What Im saying acousticrock87 is that all religions claim to be the right religion. So waht I am saying to those people, that althoygh they have the right to believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong, without any proof that their belief system is the correct one, they are all wrong!!!!!!!!

We have absolutely no way to proof that Islam is the one true religion, we have no proof that Christianity is the one true religion, we have no proof that Judaism is the one true religion, we have no proof that Hinduism is the one true religion, we have no proof that ANY religion has any merit to the world whatsoever!!!!
Chrsitianity:
You want to believe that Jesus healed people with diseases by merely touching them and using no medicine? Fine. You want to believe Jesus walked on water with no physical support? Fine. Yopu wna tot believe Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven? Fine
Judaism:
You wan to beleive that Jesus WASN'T the messiah for all mankind and that the Jewish messiah is yet to come? Fine.

Islam:
You want to believe that jesus was a prophet of God, but not the messiah? Fine. You wan to belive that Muhamed was the last and Final Prophet of Allah and was come upon by tow angles who washed his heart to absolve alkl sin form it and he lead the Muslims ina holy war that leaves yr religion as the one true faith? Fine.

Hinduism:
You want to believe that the universe is controlled by many gods, some who have Elephant heads and some that have many arms to smoke marijuana with? Fine.

All religion is protected under FAITH. Faith is something that we believe in but CANNOT EVER BE PROVED!! Anyone can believe in anything that they want, Im just saying that without proof, you are technically wrong!!!!! It's like claimng that orange juice can cure brain cancer. But without running any scientific test to conclude any results, you are wrong!!!! Religion is the result of widescale ignorance and incomprehension of the universe at large. I'm not saying that a higher power does not exist, Im just saying that there is no way we could ever know with our tiny little brains what God is or how it works. People organized religion because things happened around themmin their environment, to their people and had no understanding of biology and physics and chemnistry and thought that an unseen being must have done it for some reason. And if there really is only one true faith, then why hasn't God revealed Itself to the whole world and demanded that they practice this religion and all this other stuff?

The debate over the existance of god has been around since the beginning of human history. The debate will always go on, like it should, but it will ultimately end inconclusively. We just have no real way of knowing the existance of god. It....just....isn't....possible. It's just one of those things that will be shrouded in doubt and mystery for all eternity like:
"where did the universe come from?"
"why do we exist?"
"why do bad things happen to good people?"
"what's in MacDonald's secret sauce?"
"who shot J.R.?"
"who shot Kurt Cobain?"
"where's IS the beef?"
"what did ever happend to Baby Jane?"

We'll never know the answers to these questions. But we can always debate them. But without ANY proof thay are all just mysteries and without ANY proof, all theories are just as worthless as any others.
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:36 PM   #53
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It's all pretty simple. If you die with fear then your body decomposes in the ground & its energy is redistributed that way. In the case of cremation, (before some smart ass pipes up) the corpse's energy is transformed into ashes & most of the energy is burned off into the atmosphere as heat energy.

If one dies without fear, then the cultivated soul is transformed into another form of energy. I, unlike a "holy man", would never pretend to be able to tell you any more than that.

Dying without fear is nearly impossible, thus most people rot in the ground when they die. There have been studies done that prove that Tibetan monks can alter their brain waves at will & where a monk in deep meditation can hear a shotgun blast go off right next to them without their brain waves being altered one bit. Contrast this with most people who get the willies if a bee even flies to close to them.

Humans have the potential of a will to overcome fear. Animals are instinctual, their fear is programmed involuntarily & so they cannot ponder their own deaths consciously.

This is what I meant, touch me i'm sick, by "decide if you are a sheep or if you are a human being." My knowledge is nothing special, as I've known all of this since I was in high school & none of you who are having these questions have any excuse for not knowing all of this already.
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:40 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipslikewindows
That's actually not true at all. Christianity is actually founded on the idea that living a good life gets you NOWHERE whatsoever. It's the fanatics that have turned it around. Even a cursory reading of what Jesus said in the Gospels demonstrates that being morally upright is, in the end worthless in God's eyes (as well as completely impossible).

And it's not a matter of "if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell", though it's been turned into that. It's "Hell is a place for people who don't want to be with God." So obviously, if someone doesn't want to be with God, that's where they would go (assuming Christianity were true).

As far as who it would make me happy to see in hell? The answer is absolutely no one. To be honest, and I'm not trying to be controversial, if I died and woke up in heaven, it would break my heart with joy to see Hitler there too. But that's not to say that he wouldn't be changed. Or that everyone else there (including me) wouldn't be too.

I don't beleive in God, really (I'm open to the possibility, but without "knowing" I can;t beleive) but if God were to turn out to be a real entity, I would be very interested in being in God's presence. I would have many, many questions for God.

Hell isn't really a place for people who don't wanna "hang out" with God, it was meant to be a place for those who openly rejected the laws that God gave to man to live life properly. If you murder people wrongly, you go to hell. If you steal, you go to hell, etc. It's not like the section of a bar for the people who don't drink or a section of a restaurant for the people who don't smoke. Hell is punishment.

Also, why would you be happy to see Hitler in heaven? He tortured, mudered and experimented on millions of people for no good reason what so ever!!!! If anyone were to go to hell it would have to be people of Hitler's character. His behavior warrants more than earthly punishment. A bullet to the head and then being burned with gasoline doesn't make up for what he did to so many innocent people. He doesn't deserve to go to heaven. Ever.
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Old 07.31.2006, 04:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atari 2600
Just decide whether you're a sheep or a human with a will & a mind and you should be okay.



It's Lundeberg (Helen) or Ljungberg (Freddie), for one thing & something tells me you'll end up screaming at the wall like Camus. Find it "suspect" all you want, but the facts are that the core truths of physics aren't really theoretical, & although quantum physics raises more questions than answers in some regards, Relativity proves God's existence in many ways.

When Newton first formulated his world-changing laws of motion ushering in the Industrial Revolution, Science felt like it had Nature licked. Nietzsche echoed that "God is Dead." Then a British geologist named John Michell came along about a century later & postulated black holes & then in the early 20th century came the absolutely stunning revolutions in our approach with Einstein who formulated Natural Laws that, unlike Newton's, also worked in a vaccuum & can be applied everywhere throughout the universe. But the theories also raised many questions again. From his work, Schwartzchild & Bohr & many others went on to more wondrous discoveries, but no one has ever or will ever stumble upon a unified theory that unites Einstein's Gravity with the other forces like electromagnetism & the strong & weak nuclear force. Gravitrons seem to be the area right now where we are slowly learning more; in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead. This truth, that God is easier to behold now due to modern physics than ever before history, is quite ironic considering the general level of consciousness & the intelligence of the average person on the planet.
The future of the Earth depends on many things, but perhaps most chiefly, the quality of our educations will play the most important role.


okaaaay,

First it's lunberg : not lundeberg(like in the song) or ljunberg (soccer player haha).

Secondly, I do believe like you that Science does not exclude God like a mainstream opinion would want it to be (God being an exotic explanation to why we are here and Science being the real thing).
However, quantum Physics( Relativity) does not prove the existence of God in any way. I do not know where you read that...

Again, when you say :

in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead

you aren't explaning at all why God existence should be all the more true : the complexity of the String theory itself isn't an argument in favor of the existence of God. You're using a classic but invalid argument according to which a complew universe cannot be the doing of chance. Invalid because it's a postulate ( is that the english word ?), not an undisputable fact.

The predicament in apprehending God existence is real : modern logic theories cannot be conceived with the absence of Postulate. Proving the existence of God must mean that you are always "presupposing something" (damn my englissh gets so bad on these subjects...). And the fact that, that 'something' is an arbitrary assumption (since it's a postulate) shows us that you cannot really prove the existence of God.

Believe me, a lot of papers on the subject and none has actually given an acceptable definite answer .
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Old 07.31.2006, 05:00 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcoffee
...I would have many, many questions for God.

This whole victim's mentality that I see & hear time & time again is nauseating.

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" & so forth. Ivan Karamazov all over again.

You have a will. God didn't make the Earth a cesspool of corruption & evil...humans did...by not understanding properly & not living in accordance to Natural Laws. The state of this world is the summation of all of our errors of the will & we have only ourselves to blame.

So you may ask why God would then even allow us a will. If one seriously asks this question, then I suppose you would fit in better with cro-magnons than homo sapiens.
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Old 07.31.2006, 05:05 PM   #57
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King -

You just exposed the biggest misunderstanding you have with what I'm saying:

"He doesn't deserve to go to heaven. Ever." Of course not! That's not what Heaven, in Christianity , is! It's not something anyone deserves, or ever could deserve! It would warm my heart to know that Hitler finally laid down his guns and let himself be forgiven, let himself be healed of whatever fucked up tumor he had in his soul (which I believe we all have to varyingly-obvious degrees), let love win him over. In the end I don't think Heaven would be very meaningful if it weren't available to everyone, including Hitler. They would just have to choose it.

And yes, Hell is a place for people who don't want to "hang out" with God, in Christianity. It's a place for people who did not let him in. It has nothing to do with having violated the laws, because according to Christ, ahem, the founder of the religion, everyone's violated the law a zillion times over.

Also, religion is not a matter of faith necessarily. My religious beliefs are not really beliefs at all. I know God exists. I don't worry about it at all. It's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of knowledge. It would be an act of intellectual suicide for me to not believe in God. The faith (this is a common misconception) is put into the PERSON of God. You've seen their character, now you trust them, etc. Like you trust that your best friend isn't the kind of person to leave you high and dry. That's faith.
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Old 07.31.2006, 05:12 PM   #58
HaydenAsche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunberg
okaaaay,

First it's lunberg : not lundeberg(like in the song) or ljunberg (soccer player haha).

Secondly, I do believe like you that Science does not exclude God like a mainstream opinion would want it to be (God being an exotic explanation to why we are here and Science being the real thing).
However, quantum Physics( Relativity) does not prove the existence of God in any way. I do not know where you read that...

Again, when you say :

in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead

you aren't explaning at all why God existence should be all the more true : the complexity of the String theory itself isn't an argument in favor of the existence of God. You're using a classic but invalid argument according to which a complew universe cannot be the doing of chance. Invalid because it's a postulate ( is that the english word ?), not an undisputable fact.

The predicament in apprehending God existence is real : modern logic theories cannot be conceived with the absence of Postulate. Proving the existence of God must mean that you are always "presupposing something" (damn my englissh gets so bad on these subjects...). And the fact that, that 'something' is an arbitrary assumption (since it's a postulate) shows us that you cannot really prove the existence of God.

Believe me, a lot of papers on the subject and none has actually given an acceptable definite answer .

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Old 07.31.2006, 05:13 PM   #59
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religion is silly
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Old 07.31.2006, 05:28 PM   #60
atari 2600
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Being satisfied with being in error is what's "silly."

Silly
as in folly
as in you are willfully ignorant
as in you are evil by choice
as in it is people like you
(along with the vast majority of people

(both religious & non-religious alike)
you're not alone there, that's for sure)
that make the world so intolerably
fucked-up

for everyone.
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