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Old 06.15.2006, 10:33 PM   #41
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Old 06.15.2006, 10:37 PM   #42
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Old 06.16.2006, 06:18 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead
But they appreciate J. Mascis for doing similar stuff in all standard. Surely he is manly?

j. mascis? surely, you mean gay. mascis.
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Old 06.16.2006, 06:22 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn@ke
There was a thread where someone was saying that he could play sonic youth songs on standar tuning, that's impossible you just can try to emulate the sounds, but you can't play the songs like they really are, and that kind of sucks. You can prove me wrong by recording a sonic youth song played in standard.
I can play Dirty Boots in standard tuning however the tabs are probably wrong but it has the simular sound.
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Old 06.16.2006, 07:35 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by val-holla-ing
maybe it has something to do with tone? certain notes sound better on certain strings on certain frets. if you listened a little harder, maybe you'd take notice that they're not just playing power chords.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m^a(t)h
It seems like sonic youths unusual tunings are now only a gimmick to keep them from being considered just "rock". For the most part their songs are very tonal and harmonic. The unususal tunings serve little purpose nowadays. Im saying this because I hate when people talk to me about them and how they heard there tunings are so weird. I mean songs like "shadow of a doubt", "halloween", and "brave men run" take full advantage of the open tunings (along with many other of their earlier works). But alot of their newer stuff is just power chords unecessarily spaced across octaves.

I suggest that both are, in part, correct. There are a few subtleties which warrant the use of alternate tunings - the subtle variations of timbre, the drone notes, the ocassional dissonant effect of close intervals in the courses. I assume they're still using courses (2 strings the same note) rather than whole chords across the strings (as in Blues/ Folk).

I think there are two separate understandings at play here - the first: Msquiggly lettersAth seems to be alluding to the general structure of the songs. In terms of the general structure, there isn't that much in the last 2 albums (what I've heard of RR so far at least) that sounds like its using any intervals or tonal progressions that are necessarily that far away from the general usage of standard tuning - that is, the tuning seems to have come to define the structure of the song less and less (something you would never say about Evol-era). I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with this per se, but I would suggest that it is much easier to emulate the more recent albums on standard tuning.

The second understanding is that of emphasis on the minutae of playing - as Val-holla-ing say, the subtleties of timbre and intonation borne of alt. tunings/ stringings. I don't particularly think this is the most important thing - I don't want to argue my case for this. The point is that what one set of people privelege in their appreciation of SY (the tonal structure) is different to what is being priveleged in other appreciators (the subtle minutae).

I should like to add that there is nothing holy about alt tunings - to my mind, Keiji Haino, Masayuji Takayanagi and Derek Bailey (all standard tunings) take the guitar to farther reaches than most, as do (did?) SY, Keith Rowe, Phil Niblock - the creation lies in the imagination of the creator. The majority of rock bands who use alt tunings do so for very little reason - they only end up emulating the 5ths of most rock.

Hmm. There is more to say, but for now I tire of typing.
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Old 06.16.2006, 01:02 PM   #46
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Old 06.16.2006, 01:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn@ke
Then you are playing it wrong, where's that tab?, maybe 25% of the notes/chords you are playing are right, the rest are wrong.

If you really want to play that song, check this thread:

http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/sho...4442#post14442

That's my Dirty Boots tab (T's part), I think it is 95% accurate.

I can play that on standard too. Look at what you tabbed out. Its just a bunch of root and fifths (=powerchord) It doesnt warrant the use of alternate tuning....
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Old 06.16.2006, 02:47 PM   #48
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i'm the other guy who can play some SY songs with standard tunnings...
i can play sunday (i posted some chords time ago), and some thurston songs from Psychic Hearts ...
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Old 06.16.2006, 04:29 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn@ke


I would love to hear how do you play dirty boots using standard tuning, you can't play those things, but..who knows, you're da musician!

...oh and good luck trying to play the intro:

Intro:
D|----5-------7-------2-------4-------5-------7-------2-------4------|
E|--3-------5-------0-------2-------3-------5-------0-------2--------|
G|---------------------------------------------------------------etc-|
D|-5---5---7---7---2---2---4---4---5---5---7---7---2---2---4---4-----|
G|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
E|-------------------------------------------------------------------|


I know how are you going to play that using standard tuning, something like this?:

E|-----3----5----0----2-----|
B|--------------------------|
G|--------------------------|
D|--5-5--7-7--2-2--4-4------|

A|--------------------------|
E|--------------------------|


that doesn't sound exactly like the song, you need that low E.











i can play the intro, main progression, and chorus in standard. And no thats not how I play the intro. The fact is you cant get the same exact octaves as the song, but you can get the main idea down and to a casual fan probably pass it off as how they play it. I dont see how this warrants the use of alternate tuning. The tuning is irrelevant for the song. Thurston wasnt thinking how weird he could get it sound. He was thinking of how to play a V- IV- I progression in A followed by the IV chord of D. Why do you think people think U2 copied off the chorus riff. Because it can be easily immiated in standard....
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Old 06.16.2006, 04:39 PM   #50
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your intro tab is wrong anyway....
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Old 06.16.2006, 07:32 PM   #51
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Old 06.16.2006, 07:38 PM   #52
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and im thinking about recording it. The intros tricky in standard but can be done if I practice, im not going to bother with the solo licks if I record, just the meat of the song...
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Old 06.16.2006, 09:10 PM   #53
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interesting topic and i do agree with who create it.
though i don't think all the new songs are simple power-chords.... but the fact is that they don't seem to willing to explore the weird sound of a guitar in aternative tuning that they used to.

i liked them better when they explore the advantages of a guitar in aternative tuning...
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Old 06.16.2006, 11:09 PM   #54
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I guess the alternate tuning thing has become kind of gimmicky, but most bands have gimmicks now, most of them very un-innovative and boring; they all sound alike. At least SY has something to seperate themselves from the rest of the pack. Especially since a lot of "indie" bands have become increasingly popular. Sonic Youth still makes challenging and interesting music, and honestly, I don't care how they go about doing it. As long as it gets done, I'm happy.
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Old 06.17.2006, 05:44 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m^a(t)h
It seems like sonic youths unusual tunings are now only a gimmick to keep them from being considered just "rock". For the most part their songs are very tonal and harmonic. The unususal tunings serve little purpose nowadays. Im saying this because I hate when people talk to me about them and how they heard there tunings are so weird. I mean songs like "shadow of a doubt", "halloween", and "brave men run" take full advantage of the open tunings (along with many other of their earlier works). But alot of their newer stuff is just power chords unecessarily spaced across octaves.

Im going to get bashed for saying that....

I remember an interview to Lee and he said standard tuning has a standard sound.
Nothing more true!
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Old 06.17.2006, 01:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by next step
I remember an interview to Lee and he said standard tuning has a standard sound.
Nothing more true!

Derek Bailey. Derek Bailey. Derek Bailey.

Need I go on?
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Old 06.17.2006, 02:02 PM   #57
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yes, you need. as brilliant as bailey was, his style of playing wouldn't really be suitable for playing what are still essentially rock songs. he was all about timbre and such rather than interjecting new harmonic and tonal possibilities into rock music.
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Old 06.17.2006, 03:14 PM   #58
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i hate when people criticize standard tuning. There are actually alot of stuff you can do with drones in standard just because of the way it is set up. Im not saying standard is superior, my guitar is usually in a sonic youth tuning or one of my own, but to just say standard is standard is a very lame excuse. And plus, nothing sounds better then some old fashioned country jams in standard tuning...
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Old 06.17.2006, 06:05 PM   #59
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I think if people didn't misuse words we wouldn't have this lame debate :
- standard tuning has NOTHING to do with whether something is tonal or not : just because u use non standard tuning doesnt mean you make atonal music

- that said, SONIC YOUTH has never been atonal. Yes of course, there's a non tonal part in almost every song but every song they did as SY(except those found in WM or NYCGF ) is TONAL : meaning it has a tonality.
DDN is definitely TONAL (or MODAL depending on the song ). However the released SYR is rarely tonal.
The reason why Sonic Youth (and they're far from being the only ones) uses alternate tunings is because :
- Some chords are easier to play in a certain tuning
- The harmonics when sounding the guitar aren't the same.

This may seem obnoxious but you can't let people bullshit you with this tonal - non tonal stuff.
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Old 06.17.2006, 06:33 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunberg
This may seem obnoxious but you can't let people bullshit you with this tonal - non tonal stuff.

perhaps it's not an argument about tonality/atonality, but an argument over the actual tone or timbre of the notes at certain places on the instrument.
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