[tesla69]

I applied to go to grad school in 1989 I wanted to critique genetic engineering within a History of Science context but was summarily rejected. I tried to warn the fuckers 20 years ago but the arrogant experts wouldn't listen as usual. And I'm sure they won't listen now.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/30/164859/442

But don't worry about GMO, nanotechnology is going to destroy everything.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by tesla69

I applied to go to grad school in 1989 I wanted to critique genetic engineering within a History of Science context but was summarily rejected. I tried to warn the fuckers 20 years ago but the arrogant experts wouldn't listen as usual. And I'm sure they won't listen now.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/30/164859/442

But don't worry about GMO, nanotechnology is going to destroy everything.

yeah i heard about the bees over the weekend and it's fuked up

about the grad school thing-- what i dont understand is how you had your conclusions drawn before you even did your research-- that was probably hurdle #1 seems to me.

here another hypothesis, suggesting microwave radiation:

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2007/03/06/millions_of_bees_die_are_electromagnetic_signals_t o_blame.htm


but we don't know yet--oh prophet!-- we really don't know what's the cause

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_Collapse_Disorder

[atari 2600]

Some warn that the disappearing bees are an omen of ecological disaster. Bees busily spread the pollinated seeds around everywhere they need to go.
(i read a story on metafilter related to this)

Killered Bees. The NYTimes covers the mysterious collapse of commercial honeybee colonies over the last 5-months, covering dozens of states. The disease, Colony Collapse Disorder, does not have a determined cause. The Canary Database indicates that bees can serve as "canaries in a coalmine" for human diseases, as many other animals do. Some of the suspected causative agents (as reported [pdf] by Penn State) include a immunodeficiency, the hive consumption of high-fructose corn syrup, nutritional stress, parasites, infectious diseases, stress due to colony splitting and relocation, insecticides, and antibiotic use. The die-offs are likely to adversely impact both prices and crop yields.
posted on Feb 28, 2007

So, recent evidence shows it's due to some Monsanto-related eco-poisoning?
Unfortunately, it's not surprising really. Since Bush took office more corporations have been goinghog-wild polluting and ignoring laws. Principally at issue is that there is simply no incentive to obey the law. In the unlikely event that a corporation gets caught, they pay a fine that is less than it would cost to dispose of hazardous waste properly, so they are quite happy with the current situation. As many that are concerned remind, the laws are already in place, the problem is that there is little to no enforcement. You know, sort of like the immigration issue that has now come to a head because a vested interest has been facilitating a deliberate lack of enforcement for over a generation now.

[tesla69]

Well I had an agenda! seemed obvious the same people who gave us the EPA Supersites were also going to give us (while promising utopia as usual) some kind of genetically engineered disaster and it looks like the bees will be it.

For years organic gardeners used a kind of bacteria as a pesticide of last resort, but good old Monsanto decided to graft the bacteria DNA directly into the plant DNA so the plant produces the toxins the bacteria did. So the bees are eating the pollen from these plants and the pollen has spread out of the experimental gardens. This is only important because most all of our food requires bees to pollinate it. most of the readership on this site has already returned to ther Xbox.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by tesla69

Well I had an agenda! seemed obvious the same people who gave us the EPA Supersites were also going to give us (while promising utopia as usual) some kind of genetically engineered disaster and it looks like the bees will be it.

For years organic gardeners used a kind of bacteria as a pesticide of last resort, but good old Monsanto decided to graft the bacteria DNA directly into the plant DNA so the plant produces the toxins the bacteria did. So the bees are eating the pollen from these plants and the pollen has spread out of the experimental gardens. This is only important because most all of our food requires bees to pollinate it. most of the readership on this site has already returned to ther Xbox.

see man i know im coming across as shooting you down but i think this are superimportant issues and the sensasionalistic style does not help.

if you put "monsanto hates america" on your headline i run for my tinfoil hat.

the bacteria you're talking about is the bacillus thuringiensis yes, and monsanto are a bunch of stupid fucks, but i plead with you to keep your reasoning clear because otherwise you discredit the validity of the whole issue in the 1st place.

we currently have no proof what the fuck is going on, but this a major ecological disaster whose consequences we haven't yet reaped.

if you put "bees are dying, get ready for famines" it would still be sensasionalistic but at least would make a lot more sense.

[tesla69]

well when all the bees are dead, and you'll see how we begged for someone to prevent monsanto to release this shit into the environment - then you know its true: this corporation hates us. Monsanto needs to be nailed for this.


Of course, it could be particles from the chemtrails...but since scientists have known since 2005 this could happen, yet monsanto went ahead anyway. Whats next? Just gmo with human genes in it. You'll never know if you're a cannibal or not! Its not like the govt is going to protect you.

[Toilet & Bowels]

if you read down the page most people seem to be saying it's the pesticides and not geneticly modified crops that are killing the bees

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

if you read down the page most people seem to be saying it's the pesticides and not geneticly modified crops that are killing the bees

after i thought about this i figured that he does have a point though-- if only hypothetically-- that it could be the pesticides grafted into the genetic code of plants that's doing the bulk of the killing.

but the problem is that he already knows!!

anyway, i've been thinking about this during the afternoon. it's eerie-- reminds me of that wonderful don de lillo's novel, white noise.

[Toilet & Bowels]

yeah it could be that, but at this point it's still all speculative

[terminal pharmacy]

ummm grow your own food, stop buying packaged products. there have and always will be issues such as this, remember DDT, subharmonic weapons testing in panama, the casini space probe and on and on and on, our so called free western nations are no more free them communist nations it just appears like it on the surface, how much free will do you really have???

[tesla69]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/science/24bees.html?ei=5124&en=45d47549c4f788cd&ex=1335153 600&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted= print

So far, the researchers have discounted the possibility that poor diet alone could be responsible for the widespread losses. They have also set aside for now the possibility that the cause could be bees feeding from a commonly used genetically modified crop, Bt corn, because the symptoms typically associated with toxins, such as blood poisoning, are not showing up in the affected bees. But researchers emphasized today that feeding supplements produced from genetically modified crops, such as high-fructose corn syrup, need to be studied.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[nature scene]

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of missing bees here, but there are some major issues with claiming that GM crops are responsible. Much more research would need to be done to test this hypothesis, especially since several reputable scientific publications have provided evidence to the contrary.

Several studies indicate that Bt corn is not connected to Colony Collapse Disorder or any other dying insect problems.

For example, the Journal of Apicultural Research published a study in 2003 that tested two types of Bt corn pollen, CrylA(b) and CrylF, on honeybee larvae. The study observed no significant differences between the transgenic pollen and the non-transgenic pollen on bees fed a dose of 1.5 mg/larva of pollen. The EPA published a "Biopesticides Registration Action Document" in 2005 which reviewed research on Bt corn pollen, Cry34Ab1 and Cry35Ab1, which found no abnormalities in honeybee larvae fed 2 mg/larva of pollen.

In 2001 the scientific journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published six comprehensive studies that showed that Bt corn pollen does not pose a risk to monarch populations for the following reasons:
The density of Bt corn pollen that overlay milkweed leaves in the environment rarely comes close to the levels needed to harm monarch butterflies. Both laboratory and field studies confirmed this.
There is limited overlap between the period that Bt corn sheds pollen and when caterpillars are present.
Only a portion of the monarch caterpillar population feeds on milkweeds in and near cornfields.
(Sears, et al., 2001)

Three other problems:
1) Bees only collect a very small percentage of pollen from corn.
2) I believe the Bt protein used in corn is specific for lepidopteran insects so is not toxic to bees.
3) The supposed toxins in GM crops would not have immediate lethal effects, yet dead bees are not being found in hives, suggesting that they are dying in the fields.


The major thing here is that, as !@#$% said, we don't know the cause of CCD. At this point anything connecting GM crops or cell phone use to disapperaing bees is pure speculation. Another example is a claim that climate change may be causing bees to disappear, could be true, but for now it's only speculation. So spare me the "Monsanto hates America" bullshit and try getting your information from scientific publications rather than newspapers.
_________________

[!@#$%!]

^^^ brilliant post! thank you. the paper article was interesting too, it goes into further detail about pesticides banned i france, etc., but again, the paper also says scientists don't know the cause yet.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by nature scene

So spare me the "Monsanto hates America" bullshit and try getting your information from scientific publications rather than newspapers._________________

No need to be a snit, thats why I posted the followup. You see, I WANT the answer, I'm not stuck on any agenda. However, there are some studies from Europe that have shown an effect on insects. I noticed the test you mention seem to be about monarch caterpillars and may not be analogous to the bees. Monarch larva eat milkweed leaves. The bees eat pollen of genetically engineered corn, corn engineered to be deadly to insects. But I will stand by my statements that Monsanto are evil and they do hate this country. They want a different america where they own all the genetic information and they get a royalty for every seed planted. And you will go to jail if you try to save any seeds. And god forbid Monsanto's shit should drift in the wind and infect your fields - Monsanto will sue you and win. Its your fault their pollen drifted onto your land. Its happened a bunch of times.

To be honest, putting your faith in scientific journals can be as sketchy as the newspapers - science and media are all run by the same corporatists.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by tesla69

To be honest, putting your faith in scientific journals can be as sketchy as the newspapers - science and media are all run by the same corporatists.

yes man you changed your mind but i have to ask the question, do you only believe those who confirm your paranoid suspicions?

science, in spite of all its flaws and all the flaws of scientifice institutions, is still one of the best tools we have for pursuing the truth. outside of that we have what-- political expediency and superstition?

--
ps i agree nature scene got a bit unnecessarily irritated in the end, but his points stand very well regardless.

[nature scene]

Originally Posted by tesla69

No need to be a snit, thats why I posted the followup. You see, I WANT the answer, I'm not stuck on any agenda. However, there are some studies from Europe that have shown an effect on insects. I noticed the test you mention seem to be about monarch caterpillars and may not be analogous to the bees. Monarch larva eat milkweed leaves. The bees eat pollen of genetically engineered corn, corn engineered to be deadly to insects. But I will stand by my statements that Monsanto are evil and they do hate this country. They want a different america where they own all the genetic information and they get a royalty for every seed planted. And you will go to jail if you try to save any seeds. And god forbid Monsanto's shit should drift in the wind and infect your fields - Monsanto will sue you and win. Its your fault their pollen drifted onto your land. Its happened a bunch of times.

To be honest, putting your faith in scientific journals can be as sketchy as the newspapers - science and media are all run by the same corporatists.

Apologies if I got irritated, but the fact of the matter is that you did seem to have an agenda, and had your conclusions drawn before even attempting to explore the topic further. Only one of the studies I mentioned dealt with caterpillars and butterflies, which although it does not reflect directly on the bee situation, does point out that GM crops are not necessarily harmful. Meanwhile, you're ignoring the studies I mentioned about Bt corn and bees. I don't need to list the facts that I've already mentioned above.

You can stand by your statements about Monsanto. I know about the seed royalty thing, and yeah Monsanto sucks, but that has nothing to do with bees. On the genetic patenting and stuff, has anyone here read Next by Michael Crichton?

[max]

tesla is my man. thumbs up. this whole thing is eerie to say the least, probably a sign of times.

[ZEROpumpkins]

Monsanto made agent orange, and this dangerous hormone they put in dairy cows. True stuff.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ZEROpumpkins

Monsanto made agent orange, and this dangerous hormone they put in dairy cows. True stuff.

yes, they are total pricks, no doubt. but that's a different issue. it is!

[tesla69]

This link suggests it might be the severe sunspot activity...
http://www.synchronizm.com/blog/inde...-flew-too-high

I also wonder if the shifting of the magnetic poles migth be involved.

I still think we'll see severe results from Monsanto's godplaying, but if not, I won't complain. Nature Scene, there are also studies that contradict the "everything is fine" results of the studies you pointed out...I haven't taken the time to see which are sponsored by Monsanto/EPA vs independent/nonUS corporates studies, and critiques of said studies. Obviously, I have little faith or trust in the former.

%#@$^&* (Sic) wrote: "yes man you changed your mind but i have to ask the question, do you only believe those who confirm your paranoid suspicions? " Doesn't what you wrote just contradict itself? And I'm sorry you think I'm 'paranoid" (why not just call me a commie or fag or some other name to make you feel more safe or whatever reason you have for namecalling?) You see, I've been right enough times to know I'm not paranoid. Its not liek I inbvented the information. I didn't invent the act that the US tested radioactive material on pregnant women, or allowed black men with syphilis to go untreated for 40 years while they were being monitored, or conducted biological warfare experiements on San Francisco and in New York etc. It wasn't me who set up fake brothels in San Francisco and then dosed the customers with LSD to see what would happen. This stuff is real. Why is it paranoid to understand this history? I'd suggest it seems that way because you have been totally brainwashed. Anything that doesn't get approved by the Corporates is "paranoid". I'm sorry - to all of you - but the world is a place run by people with their private conflicting agendas and many of those so-called people are out to kill you and eat your children. You are the fuel for the machine. You can call me paranoid, but who has the finger on the 5,000 nuclear bombs currently aimed at the planet? I'm paranoid?!! HA!! I've barely touched the subject with you ppl...