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Old 03.07.2007, 04:41 AM   #21
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Old 03.07.2007, 11:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dead-Air
Anybody who gets into the Birthday Party is going to have a hard time swallowing shite like "Deanna"

So what you're saying is that a person who likes the Birthday Party will not enjoy a song like "Deanna" for what reason? Because it sounds different? I mean I love the Birthday Party, but I don't want everything else that I listen to to sound like the Birthday Party, nor do I think that music loses its value when it has a catchier, more accessible sound. The Bad Seeds "Best of" is just a collection of good songs that is nice to put on every now and then, and it really would be a good starting point for someone. It's not like it's made up of a bunch of songs that everyone and their grandmother has heard 10 billion times each. This isn't the Beatles we're talking about, you know.
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Old 03.07.2007, 06:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by luxinterior
So what you're saying is that a person who likes the Birthday Party will not enjoy a song like "Deanna" for what reason? Because it sounds different? I mean I love the Birthday Party, but I don't want everything else that I listen to to sound like the Birthday Party, nor do I think that music loses its value when it has a catchier, more accessible sound. The Bad Seeds "Best of" is just a collection of good songs that is nice to put on every now and then, and it really would be a good starting point for someone. It's not like it's made up of a bunch of songs that everyone and their grandmother has heard 10 billion times each. This isn't the Beatles we're talking about, you know.

To me "Deanna" is the low point of Cave's career as he just sounds foolish when he used to sound threatening (though he has done some music concurrent to it and even afterwards that was quite strong). If you like it, more power to you. I suppose that by definition, "more accessible" music will find more people that like it. And those of us who don't join the Alternative Nation are just elitist twats.

To me, when somebody asks for a reccomendation of an album, I think suggesting the greatest hits is rather insulting to them. Wouldn't they already have figured out that if they wanted to get a cross section of most popular singles then they should pick up the greatest hits? We have here somebody who says their into the Birthday Party and wants to check out albums by Nick Cave that came out later. To that request, I stand by my suggestion and say start with From Her to Eternity and go chronological from there.

I don't think the Bad Seeds first few records sound like the Birthday Party and never said I did, I said they continue from where the Birthday Party left off - i.e. powerful, innovative music. I'll even admit that my favorite song on the first album is the title track single, but there's so much more and it's all way better than "Deanna".
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Old 03.07.2007, 10:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead-Air
To me "Deanna" is the low point of Cave's career as he just sounds foolish when he used to sound threatening (though he has done some music concurrent to it and even afterwards that was quite strong). If you like it, more power to you. I suppose that by definition, "more accessible" music will find more people that like it. And those of us who don't join the Alternative Nation are just elitist twats.

To me, when somebody asks for a reccomendation of an album, I think suggesting the greatest hits is rather insulting to them. Wouldn't they already have figured out that if they wanted to get a cross section of most popular singles then they should pick up the greatest hits? We have here somebody who says their into the Birthday Party and wants to check out albums by Nick Cave that came out later. To that request, I stand by my suggestion and say start with From Her to Eternity and go chronological from there.

I don't think the Bad Seeds first few records sound like the Birthday Party and never said I did, I said they continue from where the Birthday Party left off - i.e. powerful, innovative music. I'll even admit that my favorite song on the first album is the title track single, but there's so much more and it's all way better than "Deanna".

Deanna is a great song, there is nothing wrong with it. I just find you funny because this is the first time I've ever heard of someone hating that song with such a passion. Maybe your efforts to discredit it would be better spent elsewhere.

And please, spare me this "Alternative Nation" nonsense. The way you talk, it's as if you think the Bad Seeds were on the verge of being as big as Nirvana or something, and were in danger of "selling out" in some way. Their singles, for the most part, have always been very strong, solid sort of songs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably just bitter because the band was actually moving in a new direction rather than rehashing old material and staying in their safety zone.

I think the point of recommending a Best Of was so that the original poster could decide for themself what real album they wanted to buy first. Here we had people recommending From Her to Eternity as well as The Boatman's Call, two entirely different records. Sometimes it's a good thing to hear a wider range of material before deciding on what record to buy, especially when there are so many to choose from. Not everyone here has money coming out of their ass, you know. Opinions, maybe, but not money.
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Old 03.08.2007, 04:57 AM   #25
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Alternative Nation, lmao the whole term alternative is oxymoronic, alternative for me would be ummm britney spears.... and the best of was a good call
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Old 03.08.2007, 10:19 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Their singles, for the most part, have always been very strong, solid sort of songs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably just bitter because the band was actually moving in a new direction rather than rehashing old material and staying in their safety zone.

I've already pretty clearly stated why that isn't the case, so now you're just looking for a cheap shot and hoping it fits. I have nothing against you personally or even your taste in music if you happen to like a song that I find silly, so lets be reasonable. My favorite music groups from Sun Ra to Sonic Youth, the Melvins to the Legendary Pink Dots, have all moved in an infinite number of directions and steered way clear of anybody's safety zone, so your attack doesn't fit in the slightest.

I also don't have anything against pop music and love a reasonable amount of it, be it Elliot Smith, Big Star, or the Carpenters. I just find a hell of a lot less passion in what Nick Cave has been doing over time, and think it started with the quest for a radio friendly song around the time of Tender Prey, though he still did much other great stuff afterwards. For me it becomes hit and miss when it had always been dependable up to that point, and the best of, like many later records is half miss.
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Old 03.08.2007, 02:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead-Air
I've already pretty clearly stated why that isn't the case, so now you're just looking for a cheap shot and hoping it fits. I have nothing against you personally or even your taste in music if you happen to like a song that I find silly, so lets be reasonable. My favorite music groups from Sun Ra to Sonic Youth, the Melvins to the Legendary Pink Dots, have all moved in an infinite number of directions and steered way clear of anybody's safety zone, so your attack doesn't fit in the slightest.

I also don't have anything against pop music and love a reasonable amount of it, be it Elliot Smith, Big Star, or the Carpenters. I just find a hell of a lot less passion in what Nick Cave has been doing over time, and think it started with the quest for a radio friendly song around the time of Tender Prey, though he still did much other great stuff afterwards. For me it becomes hit and miss when it had always been dependable up to that point, and the best of, like many later records is half miss.

I really do not care for a summary of your musical tastes, as this isn't a discussion about Sun Ra or The Carpenters.

Fine, you think Deanna is silly--whatever, that's your right, and I'm not telling you to change your opinion. But what I am saying is that your opinion is silly, because it seems based on the idea that the Bad Seeds have, at some point in their career, pandered to a particular audience (in this case, MTV), when I don't believe that to be true at all.
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Old 03.08.2007, 04:17 PM   #28
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To All Those At Mtv,

I Would Like To Start By Thanking You All For The Support You Have Given Me Over Recent Years And I Am Both Grateful And Flattered By The Nominations That I Have Received For Best Male Artist. The Air Play Given To Both The Kylie Minogue And P. J. Harvey Duets From My Latest Album Murder Ballads Has Not Gone Unnoticed And Has Been Greatly Appreciated. So Again My Sincere Thanks.

Having Said That, I Feel That It's Necessary For Me To Request That My Nomination For Best Male Artist Be Withdrawn And Furthermore Any Awards Or Nominations For Such Awards That May Arise In Later Years Be Presented To Those Who Feel More Comfortable With The Competitive Nature Of These Award Ceremonies. I Myself, Do Not. I Have Always Been Of The Opinion That My Music Is Unique And Individual And Exists Beyond The Realms Inhabited By Those Who Would Reduce Things To Mere Measuring. I Am In Competition With No-one.
My Relationship With My Muse Is A Delicate One At The Best Of Times And I Feel That It Is My Duty To Protect Her From Influences That May Offend Her Fragile Nature.

She Comes To Me With The Gift Of Song And In Return I Treat Her With The Respect I Feel She Deserves - In This Case This Means Not Subjecting Her To The Indignities Of Judgement And Competition. My Muse Is Not A Horse And I Am In No Horse Race And If Indeed She Was, Still I Would Not Harness Her To This Tumbrel - This Bloody Cart Of Severed Heads And Glittering Prizes. My Muse May Spook! May Bolt! May Abandon Me Completely!

So Once Again, To The People At Mtv, I Appreciate The Zeal And Energy That Was Put Behind My Last Record, I Truly Do And Say Thank You And Again I Say Thank You But No...no Thank You.

Yours Sincerely, Nick Cave 21 Oct 96.
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Old 03.09.2007, 12:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
I really do not care for a summary of your musical tastes, as this isn't a discussion about Sun Ra or The Carpenters.

The "summary" (and trust me, it's far from a summary) was in response to your accusation that I favor artists rehashing themselves and staying in their safety zone. This is so distant from the truth that I felt I should provide some examples to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by luxinterior
But what I am saying is that your opinion is silly, because it seems based on the idea that the Bad Seeds have, at some point in their career, pandered to a particular audience (in this case, MTV), when I don't believe that to be true at all.

I have to chuckle that your comments were followed by a letter posted by Terminal Pharmacy where Cave thanks the folks at MTV for their support! Of course he also attempts to make clear that he isn't pandering by asking not to be nominated for an award, but that's hardly the same thing as not wanting his videos in rotation in front of that audience. He makes is perfectly clear he does want that, and that he seemed to be getting it. I wonder why? Could it be that the songs that accompanied them were significantly more palatable to that audience than some of his other work?
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Old 03.09.2007, 12:55 AM   #30
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Old 03.09.2007, 06:37 AM   #31
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Let's get one thing straight,here: Eliiot Smith and Big Star are not pop or what is generally known and sounds like it.Argue the fuck out of it as much as you like but it makes my blood boil when that is stated because it is inaccurate and generally comes out from someone who mainly listens to guitar music.Not attacking Dead Air because i think that he's a quality poster but when you hear that sort of thing said by someone who's scared of listening to anything that doesn't involve an acoustic instrument for the millionth time,it just takes the mickey.Sorry for ranting a bit but the coffee is cold and there is not enough sugar in it.
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Old 03.09.2007, 08:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead-Air
I have to chuckle that your comments were followed by a letter posted by Terminal Pharmacy where Cave thanks the folks at MTV for their support!

Really? I didn't find that funny at all, because it was a fairly good example of what I was talking about. I never said that Nick Cave hated MTV or anything of the sort, just that he didn't pander to that audience. There is a big difference. The definition of pandering is obviously not "thanking someone for their support." You'd do well to note the difference. It's not like I would want the group to throw a little hissy fit every time MTV dared to show one of their videos. Is that sort of exposure really such a bad thing? You seem to have some kind of vendetta against MTV. Also, yes their music because more palatable in some ways, but I doubt it was because MTV was some sort of influence. And anyway, there's something wrong with the idea of Nick Cave revisiting his Birthday Party years in any way. It's in the past, and we can all still enjoy the records, so it's fitting for him to put that behind him, if indeed that's what he wants to do, which seems to be the case. I still like him, and I'm always willing to listen to his newer stuff, and you don't seem to agree with that, but that's your own preference. I just like the group in most forms they take on, and I can't help that part much.
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Old 03.09.2007, 08:29 AM   #33
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Grinderman are supposed to be very good.
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Old 03.09.2007, 08:38 AM   #34
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Grinderman are supposed to be very good.

Indeed they are.

And all joking aside, I think "The Best of..." is a jolly good place to start.
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Old 03.09.2007, 10:36 AM   #35
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And anyway, there's something wrong with the idea of Nick Cave revisiting his Birthday Party years in any way.

We've been through the other stuff you say enough times that I think we've covered every point on both sides. However, I do want to address the above, because believe it or not, I agree with you. Never once did I say that Cave should redo his Birthday Party stuff, or even that the best Bad Seeds material was Birthday Party clone music.

I said that I loved the early Bad Seeds material because it continued where the Birthday Party left off. Which is to say took those roots and explored them in new ways and new direction. You can tell it's the same guy at the front, but From Her to Eternity is very much a new band and new experience. I just have trouble with the stuff a little further down the line that's way less unique in general. Honestly, it's still better music than 90% of what's out there, but if somebody asks me to reccomend his best work with the Bad Seeds, I'm going to point to the early stuff without hesitation.
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