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Old 12.29.2019, 10:06 AM   #7961
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Yeah, the Gallagher thing is stone sick evil. Lay the blame on Shrub for starting the whole fucking Iraq thing. Him and Dickie Cheney can rot in hell.
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Old 12.29.2019, 10:45 AM   #7962
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Interesting narrative you’ve weaved together, no doubt that took some doing. However, you’ve done so without providing any racists acts by myself. You blather on about using someone’s proper name is somehow begetting hate, but you totally failed to provide any situation where I used said name in hate. Any connotation perceived by the reader and any fear or discomfort they are struggling with from reading a post is on behalf of the reader.

I’ll state it again, you won’t find any post by myself berating President Obama during his presidency, nor will you find any supportive post regarding President Trump during his campaign run. I’ve never displayed hate or racist tendencies towards anyone here at SYG......it’s that simple!!!

This is the TRUTH!

However, I could provide numerous post from over the years by long standing SYG members where they berate, mock and make fun of Christianity......but I’m not foolish enough to try and compare that to begetting hate or hate speech. More importantly, I never lashed out at others and I never perceived such rhetoric as an attack on myself.

I’m not so willfully blind that I don’t understand the difference!








Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
Those instances (the ones pointed out here) are someone voicing their discomfort with far right talking points seeping into this forum and being repeated ad nauseam. I see no actual ill-wishes concerning your personal well-being in them. They are harsh indictments of the type of stuff you're posting here. And as I will lay out in detail below the next quote, there's a whole bunch of legitimate concerns those two as well as others have no doubt tried to communicate to you. It's not like this whole thing started yesterday. Context certainly does matter.


Things are not quite that simple. But a certain rhetoric, certain sources and talking points carry connotations. Just a random example: Putting repeat emphasis on Obama's middle name for instance implies that whoever does that has some issues with that middle name. It instills an image of the "other". And it's been a favorite of rightwing pundits that sought to discredit him.
And more broadly, spreading false information, using the lingo of the current president and so on and so forth displays a large amount of devotion to that machinery.
At this point, so much is known about the person in question, one Donald Trump. There are several instances that put some of the Nazi-comparisons into context. And I'm by no means the first one to point these out, but here are just a handful of incidents, behavioral patterns and pieces of information that should serve as a little refresher:


*Trump has retweeted a quote by Mussolini and didn't distance himself from said fascist dictator when it was pointed out to him.


*Trump has claimed there were "very fine people" on both sides in the wake of a counterprotester being killed during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville in 2017. And this year, his reflections on said remark included him praising Robert E. Lee, even going so far as to state the following: "I have spoken to many generals here, right at the White House, and many people thought of the generals, they think maybe he was their favorite general."

*Ivana Trump mentioned in her testimony that Donnie had a copy of "My New Order" - a collection of Hitler's speeches in a cabinet by his bed - an anecdotal account you may say, but I'm inclined to believe her; Trump constantly labels mainstream media as "fake news", disavowing pretty much anything that doesn't stroke his ego - which draws eerie parallels to Hitler's strategy of discrediting any media critical of him and calling it "Lügenpresse" ("lying press"); there are plenty more instances that draw some parallels - all of them, as well as those already mentioned in this bracket are also summed up here in this op-ed.


And there is plenty more, but it's kind of late around here and I guess I'll call it a day for now. Not quite done speaking my mind though.

So what am I trying to say here? Am I saying Trump is Hitler 2.0, a carbon copy of WWII-era Nazism? Well, not quite. All things considered, the amount of power National Socialists wielded and their widespread influence over the masses was much bigger. And then there's the harrowing scope of their atrocities: The Holocaust, the invasion and oppression of then Chechoslovakia, Poland and France, the most destructive war in human history, an abhorent ideology that had poisoned many minds and has produced sociopolitcal aftershocks that can be felt even today. Those are under no circumstances to be minimized and should serve as a tragic reminder of what unchecked fear-mongering, nationalism and sheer hatred can lead to. Hence, I won't say one is exactly like the other. However, not being able to see some similarities with all that information at hand is just being willfully blind. An admin does not have to check all the same boxes to fish in the same toxic pond as those power structures. Evil may take on many different forms - National Socialism, Jim Crow, The KKK, Stalinism etc. - but they tend to make use of a specific set of patterns, a common language if you will. Not all of them apply to each one of them, but all of them include at least a few of those: Cult of person; "Us" vs. "Them" - The construction of a mindset that emboldens a certain group and singles out those that supposedly don't belong in that group; Suppression of dissent, whether it may be in the form of systematic rhetoric or actual threats of violence; Violent rhetoric and violent actions in general; An emphasis on nationalism; Trying to play into people's fears and frustrations to gain their approval and to manipulate them; etc.


Trump checks pretty much all of those boxes. And he surrounds himself with people that like to swim in that pool. He's mostly out for his own gains and fortunately his approval ratings are quite low. And he does have a vocal opposition that gets a platform, so fortunately, some of his most vile policies/attempted actions were thwarted. Plus, he's quite incompetent as he's proved time and time again. But that doesn't mean he isn't actively trying to be one of the most despicable human beings out there right now. And I must say, if you don't mind me quoting one of his similarly atrocious predecessors: Mission Accomplished!

We need to be careful with what we surround ourselves with. Hate begets hate. Everyone can potentially be deceived by the powers that be. It takes some self-reflection to see the systems that surround you for what they are. And it's on each person to not feed into those systems, because that makes them grow. This is what I've been meaning to say here. I have no illusions this will make huge ripples, as others have surely tried to communicate similar things, possibly in a more eloquent way. And still here we are. But whatever, I spoke my mind.
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Old 12.29.2019, 10:59 AM   #7963
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(we have to see the comedy in beauregard’s ridiculous replies)
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Old 12.31.2019, 08:40 AM   #7964
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Only Two Murdered In Texas Church Shooting Hailed As Second Amendment Christmas Miracle :

A man with a shotgun opened fire in a church in White Settlement (yes, really), Texas, yesterday, killing two parishioners before two members of the church's armed volunteer security team shot and killed the gunman. Police and state and local officials praised the quick response by the security volunteers for preventing a far worse massacre, and advocates of guns everywhere triumphantly pointed to the incident as proof guns save lives, at least after some lives are already lost.

Jack Cummings(yes, really) a minister at the West Freeway Church of Christ (yes, really), told the New York Times that even before the shooting started, the shooter had been "acting suspiciously," so the security volunteers were keeping an eye on him.
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Old 12.31.2019, 09:54 PM   #7965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilduclo
Only Two Murdered In Texas Church Shooting Hailed As Second Amendment Christmas Miracle :

A man with a shotgun opened fire in a church in White Settlement (yes, really), Texas, yesterday, killing two parishioners before two members of the church's armed volunteer security team shot and killed the gunman. Police and state and local officials praised the quick response by the security volunteers for preventing a far worse massacre, and advocates of guns everywhere triumphantly pointed to the incident as proof guns save lives, at least after some lives are already lost.

Jack Cummings(yes, really) a minister at the West Freeway Church of Christ (yes, really), told the New York Times that even before the shooting started, the shooter had been "acting suspiciously," so the security volunteers were keeping an eye on him.


Before any gun nut people jump in, it sounds like these were not casual citizens with open carry permits, they were people who I have to assume had a fair amount of training in more than just safe gun handling. They had certain amounts of security training as a whole.
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Old 12.31.2019, 10:21 PM   #7966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw2113
Before any gun nut people jump in, it sounds like these were not casual citizens with open carry permits, they were people who I have to assume had a fair amount of training in more than just safe gun handling. They had certain amounts of security training as a whole.

I know nothing about that church, but you’re probably 100% correct!

I’m aware of several churches who have security teams, foyer greeters and nursery workers. Three to four times a year, the church usually provides handgun training and certification......just like they provide first aid/CPR certification for nursery workers. Church members who choose to provide security are divided into teams and when it’s your teams turn, you usually provide active security for two weeks in a row and this is usually followed by 4-6 weeks of other teams providing the security.

I’m sure other churches throughout the states do something similar, but it’s been the way of doing things here in Texas for many years now.

 
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Old 12.31.2019, 10:33 PM   #7967
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It's tragic that you could be shot in your place of worship, regardless of what said religion is.
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Old 01.01.2020, 08:44 AM   #7968
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Old 01.01.2020, 09:49 AM   #7969
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Haha!

The image of three wise men giving baby Jesus an assortment of guns as gifts is perfect.
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Old 01.03.2020, 02:47 AM   #7970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
Those instances (the ones pointed out here) are someone voicing their discomfort with far right talking points seeping into this forum and being repeated ad nauseam. I see no actual ill-wishes concerning your personal well-being in them. They are harsh indictments of the type of stuff you're posting here. And as I will lay out in detail below the next quote, there's a whole bunch of legitimate concerns those two as well as others have no doubt tried to communicate to you. It's not like this whole thing started yesterday. Context certainly does matter.


Things are not quite that simple. But a certain rhetoric, certain sources and talking points carry connotations. Just a random example: Putting repeat emphasis on Obama's middle name for instance implies that whoever does that has some issues with that middle name. It instills an image of the "other". And it's been a favorite of rightwing pundits that sought to discredit him.
And more broadly, spreading false information, using the lingo of the current president and so on and so forth displays a large amount of devotion to that machinery.
At this point, so much is known about the person in question, one Donald Trump. There are several instances that put some of the Nazi-comparisons into context. And I'm by no means the first one to point these out, but here are just a handful of incidents, behavioral patterns and pieces of information that should serve as a little refresher:


*Trump has retweeted a quote by Mussolini and didn't distance himself from said fascist dictator when it was pointed out to him.


Trump's response on this point is no more than saying that even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Bad people can say wise things, as a half-truth is often more effective than an outright lie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
*Trump has claimed there were "very fine people" on both sides in the wake of a counterprotester being killed during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville in 2017. And this year, his reflections on said remark included him praising Robert E. Lee, even going so far as to state the following: "I have spoken to many generals here, right at the White House, and many people thought of the generals, they think maybe he was their favorite general."


Here, you're buying into the Charlottesville Hoax. Here's the CNN report of the famous Trump Tower press conference of 15 August 2017 as reported the following day:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/polit...lay/index.html

Included are the following:

"On Saturday, as violence in Charlottesville played out on national television, Trump blamed "many sides" for the conflict. Though that answer was quickly panned by Democrats and Republicans alike, Trump remained silent on Sunday, leaving it to his aides to try to clean up his vague answer. Trump, after mounting pressure that was palpable inside the White House, spoke Monday and condemned the white supremacists and neo-Nazis at the heart of the violence.On Tuesday, though, Trump defended his 48-hour delay in denouncing white supremacists, arguing that he took his time because he didn't know the facts.
"I wanted to make sure, unlike most politicians, that what I said was correct, not make a quick statement," Trump said, calling his initial comment a "fine statement."
He added: "I don't want to go quickly and just make a statement for the sake of making a political statement."
The President subsequently called the driver of the car that drove through a crowd, killing one woman, a "murderer" then once again blamed both sides for the violence.
Trump said there were some "very bad people" on both sides, but that there was [sic] some who came out to protest the removal of Robert E. Lee's statue who were "fine people."
"You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, to them, of a very, very important statue and a renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name," Trump said.

***

In other words, he was distinguishing between peaceful protestors on both sides and those on both sides using violence to get their points across while denying others their say.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
*Ivana Trump mentioned in her testimony that Donnie had a copy of "My New Order" - a collection of Hitler's speeches in a cabinet by his bed - an anecdotal account you may say, but I'm inclined to believe her; Trump constantly labels mainstream media as "fake news", disavowing pretty much anything that doesn't stroke his ego - which draws eerie parallels to Hitler's strategy of discrediting any media critical of him and calling it "Lügenpresse" ("lying press"); there are plenty more instances that draw some parallels - all of them, as well as those already mentioned in this bracket are also summed up here in this op-ed.


I've just given you a blatant example of a press lie, which CNN continues to spew even AFTER the artilce I linked proved that they knew the truth.

And concerning Professor Neueborne's op-ed, I find it facile and unconvincing. That's quite difficult for me to say, since he once substitute-taught my Constitutional Law class while my regular professor was sidelined for medical reasons and he's a brilliant and humorous guy, but I jump off his train when he relates Hitler's use of unilateral executive power to the President's use of executive orders. He should know better, in that this country has an independent judiciary and President Trump has NEVER violated a court order. Furthermore, while referring derisively to President Trump's use of executive orders to skirt Congress, he appears to have forgotten President Obama's use of an executive order to impose DACA as the law of the land, which was a clear executive exercise of an Article I, Section 8 LEGISLATIVE power, and thus an unconstitutional breach of separation of powers.
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Old 01.03.2020, 05:03 AM   #7971
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Happy New 2020 Year

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Old 01.03.2020, 05:10 AM   #7972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _tunic_
Happy New 2020 Year

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Yeah, that's precisely what I'm thinking myself just now.

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Old 01.03.2020, 06:40 AM   #7973
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I didn't see there was another thread, let's keep the discussion over there to avoid cross-posting etc ...
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Old 01.03.2020, 08:30 AM   #7974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Schunk
Trump's response on this point is no more than saying that even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Bad people can say wise things, as a half-truth is often more effective than an outright lie.


So fuck the sociopolitical context and the connotations of said quote, right? We all live in a vacuum where nothing means anything anyway. Might as well appropriate a saying of a true-blue fascist to suit your needs because meaning, what is meaning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Schunk
Here, you're buying into the Charlottesville Hoax. Here's the CNN report of the famous Trump Tower press conference of 15 August 2017 as reported the following day:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/polit...lay/index.html

Included are the following:

"On Saturday, as violence in Charlottesville played out on national television, Trump blamed "many sides" for the conflict. Though that answer was quickly panned by Democrats and Republicans alike, Trump remained silent on Sunday, leaving it to his aides to try to clean up his vague answer. Trump, after mounting pressure that was palpable inside the White House, spoke Monday and condemned the white supremacists and neo-Nazis at the heart of the violence.On Tuesday, though, Trump defended his 48-hour delay in denouncing white supremacists, arguing that he took his time because he didn't know the facts.
"I wanted to make sure, unlike most politicians, that what I said was correct, not make a quick statement," Trump said, calling his initial comment a "fine statement."
He added: "I don't want to go quickly and just make a statement for the sake of making a political statement."
The President subsequently called the driver of the car that drove through a crowd, killing one woman, a "murderer" then once again blamed both sides for the violence.
Trump said there were some "very bad people" on both sides, but that there was [sic] some who came out to protest the removal of Robert E. Lee's statue who were "fine people."
"You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, to them, of a very, very important statue and a renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name," Trump said.

***

In other words, he was distinguishing between peaceful protestors on both sides and those on both sides using violence to get their points across while denying others their say.


Accuses someone of buying into press hoax, provides link that in no way invalidates, hell, even doubles down on what had been said before. I am aware of Trump's little damage control act he hastily applied about two days too late, but his track record on condemning rightwing extremists continued to be poor as all can be. And his little dogwhistles as well as his constant verbal diarrhea would continue onward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Schunk
And concerning Professor Neueborne's op-ed, I find it facile and unconvincing. That's quite difficult for me to say, since he once substitute-taught my Constitutional Law class while my regular professor was sidelined for medical reasons and he's a brilliant and humorous guy, but I jump off his train when he relates Hitler's use of unilateral executive power to the President's use of executive orders.

In the preamble, Neuborne clearly states the following:
" I hate to put Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler in the same sentence. It trivializes Hitler’s obscene crimes to compare them with Trump’s often pathetic foibles. And it understates our nation’s historic commitment to constitutional democracy to suggest a serious parallel between the twenty first century United States and 1930’s Weimar Germany."

He compiled similarities and parallels in conduct/behavior, but he never stated those actions are exactly one and the same. You don't exactly have to have the full executive power of a dictator to fancy yourself a big guy with lotsa lotsa power. And that, Trump does to a tee.



And as for Trump "never violating a court order", maybe you should think about the sheer amount of court orders his admin made necessary. Let alone the many counts of him violating the constitution.


Anyway, Trump might've just set in motion a new devastating war with his stupid actions. This is really fucking bad. And it will take center stage in this thread now.
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Old 01.03.2020, 12:20 PM   #7975
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Old 01.04.2020, 03:43 AM   #7976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
So fuck the sociopolitical context and the connotations of said quote, right? We all live in a vacuum where nothing means anything anyway. Might as well appropriate a saying of a true-blue fascist to suit your needs because meaning, what is meaning?


Accuses someone of buying into press hoax, provides link that in no way invalidates, hell, even doubles down on what had been said before.


Here's the complete transcript of the Trump Tower press conference of 15 August 2017:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...nscript-241662

Here is a portion relevant to my point:

"If you look, they were people protesting very quietly, the taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call ‘em. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know, I don't know if you know, but they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit. So I only tell you this: there are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country."

Once again, he was referring, not to the Nazis and white nationalists, but to the peaceful protesters when he said there were "very fine people" on both sides. And there most certainly was violence perpetrated on both sides, as the videos clearly show the Antifa people attacking the pro-statue people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
I am aware of Trump's little damage control act he hastily applied about two days too late, but his track record on condemning rightwing extremists continued to be poor as all can be. And his little dogwhistles as well as his constant verbal diarrhea would continue onward.


Those are subjective judgements on your part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
In the preamble, Neuborne clearly states the following:
" I hate to put Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler in the same sentence. It trivializes Hitler’s obscene crimes to compare them with Trump’s often pathetic foibles. And it understates our nation’s historic commitment to constitutional democracy to suggest a serious parallel between the twenty first century United States and 1930’s Weimar Germany."


Then maybe he shouldn't have attempted the piece in the first place. Trump is either subverting the Constitution or he isn't, and a lawyer like Professor Neuborne should know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
He compiled similarities and parallels in conduct/behavior, but he never stated those actions are exactly one and the same. You don't exactly have to have the full executive power of a dictator to fancy yourself a big guy with lotsa lotsa power. And that, Trump does to a tee.


And as for Trump "never violating a court order", maybe you should think about the sheer amount of court orders his admin made necessary. Let alone the many counts of him violating the constitution.


And, from my memory, most of those court orders were quashed on appeal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antagon
Anyway, Trump might've just set in motion a new devastating war with his stupid actions. This is really fucking bad. And it will take center stage in this thread now.

That's a new thread now. See you there!
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Old 01.04.2020, 01:30 PM   #7977
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Donald Trump claims that his unexpected strike on Iran that killed top military official Qasem Soleimani came on the heels of an imminent threat against the United States – but less than 24 hours after the president officially announced the assassination, his entire rationale for the military action has collapsed.

As NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel said on Saturday, there is “no direct evidence” that there was a specific threat against the United States that would justify the strike.

“There has been no direct evidence presented by the administration and nothing that we’ve seen,” Engel said on MSNBC’s AM Joy. “When you listen to officials at the U.S. State Department, and they described yesterday in a call to reporters what this imminent attack was all about, it was quite vague in their explanation. ”

The NBC News correspondent said the administration is presenting “a very, very broad picture that doesn’t necessarily explain the kind of pinpoint specific attack that would necessarily justify this kind of imminent threat logic.”



— PoliticusUSA (@politicususa) January 4, 2020

Engel reported:

There has been no direct evidence presented by the administration and nothing that we’ve seen. But frankly speaking, the — that is what Qasem Soleimani did. We don’t know if he was organizing what kind of attack, we don’t know if he was organizing something imminent in the future, where, when or how but the fact that Qasem Soleimani would have been meeting with Shiite militia leaders – and he was meeting with Shiite militia leaders – because they were in the same convoy that was killed for him, that’s not that unusual and the things that they would meet to do would be to carry out attacks against the U.S. That is something they’ve done in the past. That is something that is in their strategic interest. They generally both want the United States out of this country. That is what they have been set up to do. But, no, we don’t have any specific information but you can draw a logical conclusion that that’s the kind of thing they would be talking about. And frankly when you listen to officials at the U.S. State Department, and they described yesterday in a call to reporters what this imminent attack was all about, it was quite vague in their explanation. They said that it was going to be attack on U.S. personnel or U.S. bases in Iraq or Syria or the region or Lebanon, a very, very broad picture that doesn’t necessarily explain the kind of pinpoint specific attack that would necessarily justify this kind of imminent threat logic.

This is about Trump boosting his reelection bid – full stop
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Old 01.05.2020, 01:16 AM   #7978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilduclo
Donald Trump claims that his unexpected strike on Iran that killed top military official Qasem Soleimani came on the heels of an imminent threat against the United States – but less than 24 hours after the president officially announced the assassination, his entire rationale for the military action has collapsed.

As NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel said on Saturday, there is “no direct evidence” that there was a specific threat against the United States that would justify the strike.

“There has been no direct evidence presented by the administration and nothing that we’ve seen,” Engel said on MSNBC’s AM Joy. “When you listen to officials at the U.S. State Department, and they described yesterday in a call to reporters what this imminent attack was all about, it was quite vague in their explanation. ”

The NBC News correspondent said the administration is presenting “a very, very broad picture that doesn’t necessarily explain the kind of pinpoint specific attack that would necessarily justify this kind of imminent threat logic.”



— PoliticusUSA (@politicususa) January 4, 2020

Engel reported:

There has been no direct evidence presented by the administration and nothing that we’ve seen. But frankly speaking, the — that is what Qasem Soleimani did. We don’t know if he was organizing what kind of attack, we don’t know if he was organizing something imminent in the future, where, when or how but the fact that Qasem Soleimani would have been meeting with Shiite militia leaders – and he was meeting with Shiite militia leaders – because they were in the same convoy that was killed for him, that’s not that unusual and the things that they would meet to do would be to carry out attacks against the U.S. That is something they’ve done in the past. That is something that is in their strategic interest. They generally both want the United States out of this country. That is what they have been set up to do. But, no, we don’t have any specific information but you can draw a logical conclusion that that’s the kind of thing they would be talking about. And frankly when you listen to officials at the U.S. State Department, and they described yesterday in a call to reporters what this imminent attack was all about, it was quite vague in their explanation. They said that it was going to be attack on U.S. personnel or U.S. bases in Iraq or Syria or the region or Lebanon, a very, very broad picture that doesn’t necessarily explain the kind of pinpoint specific attack that would necessarily justify this kind of imminent threat logic.

This is about Trump boosting his reelection bid – full stop

Had you attempted to post this on the thread specifically geared towards this issue )entitled: The Death of General Qassem Soleimani, you might have noticed the following paragraph in my original post to that thread:

"The wisdom of the attack is another matter, as, should the intelligence that the President was given concerning the imminence of the threat prove as faulty as that given to President Johnson concerning the Gulf of Tonkin and the Dominican Republic, the President might just find himself committed to yet another war founded upon false pretenses of the type which ultimately destroyed Johnson's presidency."

***

I can only hope that what we both fear in this instance may not be the case. I do tend to trust President Trump over the corporate media, however, so let's just see what turns out to be true.
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Old 01.06.2020, 01:20 PM   #7979
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Arundhati Roy:

“..a shadow world is creeping up on us in broad daylight. It is becoming more and more difficult to communicate the scale of the crisis even to ourselves. An accurate description runs the risk if sounding like hyperbole. And so, for the sake of credibility and good manners, we groom the creature that has sunk its teeth into us; we comb out its hair and wipe its dripping jaw to make it more personable in polite company.”
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Old 01.06.2020, 01:40 PM   #7980
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https://www.salon.com/2020/01/02/edd...lent-nihilism/
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