Go Back   Sonic Youth Gossip > Non-Sonic Sounds
Reload this Page What Happened to the Negative Music Review?
Register FAQ Members List Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools
Old 09.21.2017, 10:00 AM   #21
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
the wall street journal is a good paper! try reading it some day

i'm not saying that i agree with its political positions but they actually still practice journalism and go gather facts and shit. their business and economics reporting is really impressive.

i got a trial subscription for labor day and they send me something like 20 newsletters per day with charts showing me the progression of rent inflation (higher that wage growth) and how at the edges of unemployment businesses are having trouble finding qualified applicants (bring more immigrants, i say) and innumerable other facts and trends that help me understand the world better in a way that no other publication does. (okay, maybe bloomberg is a match, but i don't have a subscription).

anyway, that article you posted is nice, it delves more into the aesthetic function of criticism but does not refute the wsj piece in any way, it actually deepens and reinforces and complements the original argument.

and props to the wsj for looking at actual FACTS and demonstrating a trend with verifiable evidence, which is what professionals do. their focus is business and industry so that's clearly their angle. nothing dumb about that piece or its approach to its subject.

I agree all around about WSJ. I don’t have a subscription, but I used to, and it’s a paper that I will pick up at the store fairly regularly, and even (gasp!) read in the library when I’m there.
Yes, it’s a Rupert Murdoch joint, but even so it’s perhaps the best example of a print publication still devoted to facts over clicks and sales in the 2010s. (Of course, part of its success in this regard is certainly due to the dependability of its readership — mostly older, over-educated, well-off white folks; not a ton of kids or working class laborers thumb through the thing, but whatever.)

HOWEVER... I don’t think Mr. Nazi was trying to refute WSJ by posting the Wire’s story (which I’m still reading, or taking a break from reading, as I type this). I think he was just saying “hey, here’s another take on this whole thing,” and offering it up as supplemental reading for the thread.

And, y’know, one really shouldn’t expect a mag like The Wire to present information in a similar way to WSJ. They’re two totally different beasts; one is a newspaper (a newspaper’s newspaper!), and the other is a feature-laden entertainment magazine. So I think the disparity between the two in terms of fact reporting is kind of a non-issue, as the two pubs simply don’t exist to produce the same kind of product. *shrug*
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 09.21.2017, 10:22 AM   #22
!@#$%!
invito al cielo
 
!@#$%!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars
Posts: 34,177
!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses!@#$%! kicks all y'all's asses
eh? i never said that sopas meant that link as a refutation, but he sorta called the paper names? which, from an ideological stance i guess one could do, but not from a journalistic one. those fuckers do good work.

the other thing i alluded to was that you called the wsj argument dumb. it's not. at all. it's the same argument more or less as the wire one, just from a different perspective-- the wire with the more aesthetic and philosophical take as it befits its editorial goals and standards. but both deal with the subject of media coverage and the deleterious effect of excessive praise.

(on a side note: i'm also heartened by the wire's denounciation of the absurdity of numerical scores, which i have always resisted... except where i'm used to them by repetition, like with netflix, where i must feed the machine that gives me recommendations-- but it's not the same thing.)

anyway-- let's not quibble about the details of minor misreadings and misunderstandings. let's go berate some music instead!
!@#$%! is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 09.21.2017, 09:02 PM   #23
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
eh? i never said that sopas meant that link as a refutation, but he sorta called the paper names? which, from an ideological stance i guess one could do, but not from a journalistic one. those fuckers do good work.

the other thing i alluded to was that you called the wsj argument dumb. it's not. at all. it's the same argument more or less as the wire one, just from a different perspective-- the wire with the more aesthetic and philosophical take as it befits its editorial goals and standards. but both deal with the subject of media coverage and the deleterious effect of excessive praise.

(on a side note: i'm also heartened by the wire's denounciation of the absurdity of numerical scores, which i have always resisted... except where i'm used to them by repetition, like with netflix, where i must feed the machine that gives me recommendations-- but it's not the same thing.)

anyway-- let's not quibble about the details of minor misreadings and misunderstandings. let's go berate some music instead!


Im pretty sure I called Metacritic’s aggregating methods dumb (or, rather, statistically unsound). I don’t think I called the WSJ argument dumb. But I guess I may have? I dunno.

...

Stupid music sucks!
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 09.22.2017, 06:16 PM   #24
The Soup Nazi
invito al cielo
 
The Soup Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 9,027
The Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian
Stupid music sucks!

"I hate music / It's got too many notes..."
__________________

GADJI BERI BIMBA CLANDRIDI LAULI LONNI CADORI GADJAM A BIM BERI GLASSALA GLANDRIDE E GLASSALA TUFFM I ZIMBRA

 
 
 
 

The Soup Nazi is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 09.23.2017, 09:14 AM   #25
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi
"I hate music / It's got too many notes..."

Mats know best.
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 09.27.2017, 09:56 PM   #26
The Soup Nazi
invito al cielo
 
The Soup Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 9,027
The Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian
And, y’know, one really shouldn’t expect a mag like The Wire to present information in a similar way to WSJ. They’re two totally different beasts; one is a newspaper (a newspaper’s newspaper!), and the other is a feature-laden entertainment magazine.

The Wire is not an entertainment magazine. It's a music magazine, and a good lot of the music it covers, while GREAT, is hardly entertaining at all!
__________________

GADJI BERI BIMBA CLANDRIDI LAULI LONNI CADORI GADJAM A BIM BERI GLASSALA GLANDRIDE E GLASSALA TUFFM I ZIMBRA

 
 
 
 

The Soup Nazi is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.12.2017, 03:28 PM   #27
TheMadcapLaughs
100%
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 825
TheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's asses
maybe people are afraid to be proven wrong in hindsight...like it sounds like garbage to me now..but what if it's just way ahead of me....

like some of those early rolling stone reviews of what are now thought of as classic albums.
__________________
 
TheMadcapLaughs is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.12.2017, 04:06 PM   #28
The Soup Nazi
invito al cielo
 
The Soup Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 9,027
The Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadcapLaughs
maybe people are afraid to be proven wrong in hindsight...like it sounds like garbage to me now..but what if it's just way ahead of me....

Lester Bangs always (privately, I believe ) reserved the right to be wrong, even when he was being ABSOLUTELY VICIOUS in his reviews. Just to give you two prominent examples, Exile On Main St. and On The Corner got the trademark L.B. shitstorm, but later he saw the light and placed them in his pantheon.
__________________

GADJI BERI BIMBA CLANDRIDI LAULI LONNI CADORI GADJAM A BIM BERI GLASSALA GLANDRIDE E GLASSALA TUFFM I ZIMBRA

 
 
 
 

The Soup Nazi is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.15.2017, 10:10 AM   #29
TheMadcapLaughs
100%
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 825
TheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's assesTheMadcapLaughs kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi
Lester Bangs always (privately, I believe ) reserved the right to be wrong, even when he was being ABSOLUTELY VICIOUS in his reviews. Just to give you two prominent examples, Exile On Main St. and On The Corner got the trademark L.B. shitstorm, but later he saw the light and placed them in his pantheon.

haha. fair enough!

the flip side of the coin, I remember hearing that when john peel didn't like some music he felt bad and assumed he didn't get what the band was going for and it was HIS issue which I thought was interesting as well
__________________
 
TheMadcapLaughs is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.15.2017, 12:03 PM   #30
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadcapLaughs
maybe people are afraid to be proven wrong in hindsight...like it sounds like garbage to me now..but what if it's just way ahead of me....

like some of those early rolling stone reviews of what are now thought of as classic albums.

Funny. People should be afraid of the exact opposite.

Lik, in 2002, everyone was saying Interpol was the new Joy Division, and no small number of Trail of Dead/Sonic Youth comparisons were made if memory serves. And while those 2002 albums still hold up quite well, gushing over them would be suicdide for a music reviewer in 2017 (or ‘16, ‘15... any time after 2003, really).

I think I would actually suck nards at reviewing music. I’d overthink everything, and I’d end up making embarrassing declarations about the goodness and shittiness of things.

What I really like is when NPR or some other outlet does a series of rapid fire “first impression” reviews of a big new release with commentary from multiple writers just talking about how they feel immediately after hearing an album for the first time. But that’s not really possible with low-profile releases... or really anything other than Kanye/Drake/Beyonce/Taylor Swift stuff. Still, I think there’s something to it. Music is a visceral thing after all, so it makes sense to discuss it in terms of the feelings it inspires.
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.15.2017, 05:58 PM   #31
Toilet & Bowels
invito al cielo
 
Toilet & Bowels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 11,927
Toilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's assesToilet & Bowels kicks all y'all's asses
I like Byron Coley's column in the wire, everything he reviews gets like 2 sentences! And those two sentences tell you enough about the band and the record give you a clear enough idea about whether you want to pursue further
Toilet & Bowels is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 11:25 AM   #32
The Soup Nazi
invito al cielo
 
The Soup Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 9,027
The Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels
I like Byron Coley's column in the wire, everything he reviews gets like 2 sentences! And those two sentences tell you enough about the band and the record give you a clear enough idea about whether you want to pursue further

Robert Christgau has being doing the same thing for ages now (OK, mostly his reviews are not as "micro" as Coley's, but still) and in almost each one of those appraisals he's said more than anything twenty times longer.

http://www.robertchristgau.com/cg.php
__________________

GADJI BERI BIMBA CLANDRIDI LAULI LONNI CADORI GADJAM A BIM BERI GLASSALA GLANDRIDE E GLASSALA TUFFM I ZIMBRA

 
 
 
 

The Soup Nazi is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 11:55 AM   #33
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi
Robert Christgau has being doing the same thing for ages now (OK, mostly his reviews are not as "micro" as Coley's, but still) and in almost each one of those appraisals he's said more than anything twenty times longer.

http://www.robertchristgau.com/cg.php

Yeah. He knows his shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Christgau on Kanye West
The College Dropout [Roc-A-Fella, 2004] A
Late Registration [Roc-A-Fella, 2005] A+
Graduation [Roc-A-Fella, 2007] A-
808s & Heartbreak [Roc-A-Fella, 2008] A-
My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy [Roc-A-Fella, 2010] A
Yeezus [Def Jam, 2013] ***
The Life of Pablo [Def Jam/G.O.O.D. Music, 2016]

Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 12:07 PM   #34
h8kurdt
invito al cielo
 
h8kurdt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In Mulder's Basement room
Posts: 3,455
h8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's assesh8kurdt kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadcapLaughs
maybe people are afraid to be proven wrong in hindsight...like it sounds like garbage to me now..but what if it's just way ahead of me....

like some of those early rolling stone reviews of what are now thought of as classic albums.

Pitchfork are the absolute worse for this. The amount of albums they've SLATED and then a few years deleted said review to now give it a 9 or something is just ridiculous.
__________________


Down with this sort of thing.
h8kurdt is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 12:12 PM   #35
The Soup Nazi
invito al cielo
 
The Soup Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Boca Vista
Posts: 9,027
The Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's assesThe Soup Nazi kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian
Yeah. He knows his shit.


Hmmmm...

Quote:
Selected Ambient Works Volume II [Sire, 1994]
"Veering between an eerie beauty and an almost nightmarish desolation," intoneth Frank Owen. "Imbuing machine music with spirituality," saith Simon Reynolds. And, most incredibly, "Always a groove going on," quoth J.D. Considine. I mean, what are these dudes talking about? Not that ambient-techno wunderkind Richard James is offensive--when I played all two-and-a-half hours of this at a quiet thermal spring in Puerto Rico, the worst any of the attendant pensioners could say about James's nightmarish desolation was "interesting." And smack dab against Eno's instrumental box--well, if James really gets "physically ill if [his] music sounds like anybody else's," that's one consumer object he'd best not sully his expanded consciousness with. Thing is, James is rarely as rich as good Eno, not to mention good Eno-Hassell or Eno-Budd. One piece here does the trick (no titles or track listings--too Western, y'know--but it is, how crass, the lead cut) by folding in a child's voice (or is that one of his electronic friends?). In general, however, these experiments are considerably thinner ("purer," Owen wishes) and more static ("pulse dreamily," Considine dreams) than the overpriced juvenilia on the import-only Volume I. Anyway, a lot of Eno's "ambient" music could also be described as bland wallpaper. When Kyle Gann or (please God) Tom Johnson pumps a minimalist, I wonder whether I'm missing something. Otherwise I believe my own ears--and pull out David Berhman's On the Other Ocean/Music From a Clearing when I need deep background. B-

Richard D. James Album [Elektra, 1996]
Jungle sure has livelied up this prematurely ambient postdance snoozemeister. His latest synth tunes are infested with hypertime electrobeats that compel the tunes themselves to get a move on. And where once he settled for austere classical aura, now he cuts big whiffs of 19th-century cheese. He even sings. Hey, fella--I hear Martha Wash needs work. B+

Come to Daddy [Warp/Sire, 1997]
 
[dud]
__________________

GADJI BERI BIMBA CLANDRIDI LAULI LONNI CADORI GADJAM A BIM BERI GLASSALA GLANDRIDE E GLASSALA TUFFM I ZIMBRA

 
 
 
 

The Soup Nazi is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 05:18 PM   #36
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by h8kurdt
Pitchfork are the absolute worse for this. The amount of albums they've SLATED and then a few years deleted said review to now give it a 9 or something is just ridiculous.

Yep. This happens a lot. There’s no taking their reviews seriously. Honestly, it’s just a thing to bolster your own positive opinion of something it they happen to agree, and a thing to bitch about if they disagree.

If I like an album and it gets an 8-10, I’m happy about it. If I like an album and it gets less, I bitch. If I hate an album and it gets an 8-10, I bitch. If I hate an album and it gets less, I’m satisfied. That’s all it’s good for. Bias-bolstering.
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|
Old 10.17.2017, 05:19 PM   #37
Severian
invito al cielo
 
Severian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,310
Severian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's assesSeverian kicks all y'all's asses
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Soup Nazi

Ah well, poor guy is half a silly fool. I’ll pray for him or whatever.
Severian is offline   |QUOTE AND REPLY|


Thread Tools

All content ©2006 Sonic Youth