[Glice]

Incidentally, the important thing about Shakespeare is he represents the hegemony of English as we understand it today; anyone who's read the Canterbury Tales or Sir Gawain... will explain that English English, before Shakespeare, was a massively diffuse mess. His artistic merit, to me, has always been clouded by his Linguistico-political merit.

Also, the fact of English being the lingua franca for a lot of the world now is almost a shame (except I speak it).

[gmku]

Hegemony? Linguistico? lingua franca?

Oh, fuck me. (ref Gordon Ramsey)

[Lurker]

...

[Glice]

Do you not understand, or are you just being awkward?

[Glice]

OR Fuck off you useless cunt.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Glice

The thing for me is that there are hundreds of versions of English. The one that I speak is different from the one you speak, and gmku is different again.

You've lived in the same area as me, but do you know where it's appropriate to say 'belter' or 'bleeder' or 'beauty'? Three words that all have a similar intent and sociolectical definition (loosely, an obviously stupid person), but they each come from a different borough in south Bristol. The point I'm making is that they English you use is by no means a more orthodox version of English just because you're 'English' - in fact, in this instance, I imagine that your English is just as inorthodox a form of English as the English of someone from Kentucky, or Kingston, or Nairobi or Swansea.

Standard English is, to my mind, an ideal formed in the subconscious of the world, not something that actually exists. It's fine that a lot of people are inobservant of these distinctions, but these distinctions do exist and it's precisely these distinctions that make us humans. Innit bredrin?

Yeah I know I'm talking crap, I'm just responding to goomuckoo.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by gmku

lingua franca?

And I was going to mention that there's a brilliant irony attached to saying that English is a lingua franca using a term that's clearly from Italian (a romance language to boot).

[gmku]

Glice, if you're not careful, I'm going to start a thread like this about you.

Lurker, you, too, for that matter.

You're both on my short list right now.

[Glice]

I suspect, of myself and Diesel, you'd find my natural accent less understandable. Geordies are worlds clearer than my bredrin.

[gmku]

Well, you know that deep down I love you, Diesel, and Lurker. Christ, I'm Bond, after all. I've sworn to defend mother England against all enemies foreign and domestic and all that bloody rot.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Glice

Incidentally, the important thing about Shakespeare is he represents the hegemony of English as we understand it today; anyone who's read the Canterbury Tales or Sir Gawain... will explain that English English, before Shakespeare, was a massively diffuse mess. His artistic merit, to me, has always been clouded by his Linguistico-political merit.

I've read Gawain in translation and bits of the Canterbury Tales. I wouldn't say it's a diffuse mess but of course different areas had different dialects.
You're talking crap. What do you mean clouded? The beauty of the language is part of what's great about Shakespeare.

[gmku]

Shakespeare's one of my favorite novelists.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by gmku

Well, you know that deep down I love you, Diesel, and Lurker. Christ, I'm Bond, after all. I've sworn to defend mother England against all enemies foreign and domestic and all that bloody rot.

That's reassuring. Lets shake hands and make up.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Glice

OR Fuck off you useless cunt.

Who are you talking to here?

[gmku]

Show me your pockets first. Very slowly.

[gmku]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Who are you talking to here?

I suspect he means me. I'm fairly useless, though the cunt part throws me.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Lurker

I've read Gawain in translation and bits of the Canterbury Tales. I wouldn't say it's a diffuse mess but of course different areas had different dialects.
You're talking crap. What do you mean clouded? The beauty of the language is part of what's great about Shakespeare.

The point I was making is that with earlier English literature there isn't the notion of a 'standardised' English; Shakespeare comes to represent the Standarisation of English. It's not that he personally was responsible for it, it's that Canterbury Tales is one form of English that wasn't necessarily the same form of English spoken in, say, Yorkshire or Devon.

The notion of dialect requires the notion of a standardised form of a language which didn't exist prior to Shakespeare epoch, so far as I understand (and please bear in mind, I'm not a linguist by any means).

I have the further problem that I don't really like Shakespeare, but that's neither here nor there.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Glice

The point I was making is that with earlier English literature there isn't the notion of a 'standardised' English; Shakespeare comes to represent the Standarisation of English. It's not that he personally was responsible for it, it's that Canterbury Tales is one form of English that wasn't necessarily the same form of English spoken in, say, Yorkshire or Devon.

The notion of dialect requires the notion of a standardised form of a language which didn't exist prior to Shakespeare epoch, so far as I understand (and please bear in mind, I'm not a linguist by any means).

I have the further problem that I don't really like Shakespeare, but that's neither here nor there.

Yeah but remember there was no standard spelling at that time and the form that we read Shakespeare in now, although the words are the same, the spelling has been changed.

Oh well I've come to love Shakespeare. And anyway English has changed since then and is still changing. Dictionaries recognise.

This whole conversation shouldn't have happened. I was being an arsehole.

But I would like to point something out: the unconscious refusal of Americans to call English people English and to only call them British. It's quite odd. My theory behind this is that they feel uncomfortable about the word 'English' because if the English are speaking their own language then what are the Americans speaking and why is it different? The word 'British' avoids this and maintains American arrogance and identity which they've had to create, though it shouldn't be a problem for any reasonable person.

[Confucious is sex]

Standard English is a dialect. It is quite dangerous to think of it as a benchmark or norm of English, because that necessarily follows that other forms are deviated from it, which is not only incorrect, but also anachronistic. What we now know as Standard English was first established by Chaucer, not Shakespeare, and it was thought then as a base form of language that was used by the ill educated. It was, however, the dialect that, originating in London, was adopted by government and commerce and, therefore, became understood nationwide. It exists not as a prestige form, then, but as a universally comprehensible form. Prestige forms generally employ more latinate lexis and convoluted sentence constructions.
Shakespeare rules ok.

[EVOLghost]

^^ lol nice name.