[jonathan]

Unsurprisingly, I tend to view this situation more in terms of Goldsmith. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I think it's more so about the way things are going and how it's almost unstoppable force. The way in which we consume music is certainly changing. I think my main point in this whole discussion is that artists need to recognize this and go with it. For better or worse, the album is on its way out.

Kinnik. I never said you were jealous about the content of the meaning that people feel toward their music. I am saying that you're jealous of the fact that people feel some sort of meaning in their lives. From what I can gather about you from your posts, you live a totally meaningless life. I didn't set up the binary between "this" (meaning an identity deriving from the categories created by the capitalist mode of production, in this case a music snob or a hipster) or nothing. It's more so that your rejection of said influence has posited your relationship to yourself in terms of some unattainable ideal of religious like proportions. Never mind the fact that your stance is derived from a western philosophy, which whether you like it or not, was born out of that same mode or production which you so ardently criticize. The ressentiment you must feel must be astounding. I'm not saying that you have to check back into society to meet your needs, but you should find some sort of purpose or meaning and stop berating the rest of us who can carry on through this song and dance called life relatively happy. No one is asking you to stop thinking critically and no one is asking you to sit back and watch the charade happen, but you should also recognize that the pedestal that you stand on is fully supported by the mode of production which you criticize. If you were living outside of the charade looking on and criticizing that would be one thing, but the very fact that you are connected to the internet, posting on this message board means that you are acting out the ideology which you are criticizing. So, whether you like it or not, you're doing the same shit that you are criticizing everyone else for doing.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Decayed Rhapsody

Err, what if one enjoys the process of creating those things? Based on your ramblings, you don't seem like a creative type at all. And isn't a rejection of "pointless formalism" one of the cornerstones of pomo ideology that you so adamantly reject?

n'ik's a very creative dude.

[GeneticKiss]

It is for the very attitudes expressed in this thread (on both sides of arguement, actually) that I gave up on trying to be a "rock star", and will never be inticed back into it. There's just too many people out there who believe that quenching their thirst for music overrides an artist's need to support themselves, which makes the fact that the music I like listening to and creating has never really been popular in a mainstream context even worse. So I've chosen to create music for a huge and ever increasing market (video games) for money, and just keep the self-expression aspect of it as a hobby, writing songs and playing small shows for the fun of it.

[alteredcourse]

Originally Posted by Derek

n'ik's a very creative dude.

You said it.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

Ann ashtray,
Every tried to "make your coin touring" a huge country like the USA with gas at $4.00/gallon?


Right.
Moving on.

I haven't, but then again I've never been in a band that went far beyond the confines of whatever our practice space was at the time. Music to me has always been about fun/etc. Touring, I know, gives band an opportunity to sell merchandise. Fans are always interested in tee shirts/posters/buttons/etc. I think if I were in a band, I'd try and work on some clever marketing scheme. Sell shirts for a wee bit expensive (like maybe 15 bucks) and throw in a free cd or some shit. Maybe press a limited amount on wax for those interested in that sort of thing. I don't know. Really, I don't view music, or creating music, as something someone should approach in any sense as a career move. Of course, if one wants to go that route more power to them and every once in a while success can be found for some....but whatever. Reality is, most bands never really "make it". I like some of the more clever marketing schemes I see out of few of todays bands like Radiohead + NIN (not saying anything about the actual music of either artist). Let fans pay what they want/etc. it's seemed to work well for both of these bands. But of course, I know this sort of scheme does little for smaller (cough cough "underground") bands....but whatever. it takes hard work like anything else and like anything else it should. Music isn't necessary for the simple survival of anyone. It doesn't put gas in my gas tank to get to work. It doesn't put food in my fridge. Whatever. Again, I support anyone doing anything they want to do, but getting all butt hurt because people "steal" music these days is just silly....other schemes at making coin can be figured out. Musicians need to quit bitching and start thinking. Just my take...+ sorry if that offends.

[Genteel Death]

Nick hates the self and he comes across as one of the most self-centred posters on here. He even admitted that he often thinks all other posts are about himself, once. Somebody help this naysayer out with coherence, please.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by kinnikpasswordforgetter

well noone does, they just want to convince us all they do. and my whole entire point is a rejection on the idea that culture should be for enjoyment. that enjoyment should be the holy mantra guiding and ultimate justification for everything we do, ever. it's masochistic, it's the enforcement of depression. you're sitting there posing as if there is anyone telling you not to enjoy. there isn't.

if you disagree there's more than enough bilge produced under that ideology for you to get through over your entire life. you can shout out to the world how much you enjoy it, i'll be sitting here fuming because my life doesn't have any meaning, like jonathon found out.

Hahahahahaha!! NOBODY enjoys what they do! Enjoying cultural artefacts is....wait....THE ENFORCEMENT OF DEPRESSION!! WHOHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Please continue airing your pompous gibberish on this thread. It's culturally entertaining.

[Genteel Death]

My enjoyment of ''stuff'', let alone my life in general, isn't affected by your posts at all. You're deluded if you think they are. How could you possibly know how much someone enjoys what they do unless they regularly keep you up to date on here?
What does '' you don't seem to, or else you would be off doing it.'' really mean? If I decide to reply to a post of yours, how exactly am I meant to be doing something that I enjoy if I don't feel like it right then? And shouldn't that be the case for you too?

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by kinnikpasswordforgetter

you and your enjoyment, me and giving a shit. nope, not happening.

but congrats on being able to reduce something to the matter of who is and isn't enjoying, again.

i no longer feel it's even necessary to point out the connection between this attitude and the quality of what is being produced. make up your own minds then come back on the board looking for someone who questions it so you can convince yourself by disagreeing with them.

ugh. this is beyond tedious.

(and it's not the case for me, because, well, if you even have to ask, you've missed my point entirely). but it's not like those bitching are even aware of what it was.

i liked you better on the ignore list. and everyone else who wants to go round in circles, trying to make an issue of me and what i do or don't enjoy because i don't agree with your bland assertion that those qualifiers are the ultimate authorities on what art is or should be.

well none of you are going to stop me from saying it, but i am going to stop getting towed along when you make replies that pretend to be thoughtful in order to relentlessly personalize everything and demand my conformity to utter positivity at all times. that's what art is about right.

Please somebody stop him from saying anything!! He'll be the end for us!!!

[jonathan]

Fair enough. But I come on this board to argue with people. It's the only reason I really do it. I've been responding to your posts because I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment, and here in a couple of days I'll whither away into SYG obscurity again. I in fact do use this board to derive a sense of enjoyment, and unfortunately, I won't stop arguing with you only because you tend to provide psuedo-intellectual arguments that anyone with any real sense can see are elaborate justifications for a lifestyle and an intellectual reasoning that are contradictory. You're a poster that I can, at the very least, sink my teeth into, and for that I appreciate you.

The ironic thing about this whole thing is that you seem to think that I am the one asserting my power over you, but in reality, the Prophet Kinnik can't seem to recognize the source of what little confidence he has in himself. Asserting your power over people on a message board is kind of a sad thing to do, and while I did it on a lonely Saturday night, as a distraction from the mountains of work that I have to have finished by the weekend, you seem to make a habit it of it. It's quite funny because I don't think anyone is fooled by the persona you create on this board. I seem to hit a nerve when I make ad hominem arguments, am I making you feel something that you intellectualized away long ago? Unfortunately for you, feeling is a biological characteristic that you can't escape. You do have emotions; you were selected for them.

Regardless, what are you actually advocating?

[Genteel Death]

Must spread etc.

[The Watcher]

Originally Posted by kinnikpasswordforgetter

well none of you are going to stop me from saying it, but i am going to stop getting towed along when you make replies that pretend to be thoughtful in order to relentlessly personalize everything and demand my conformity to utter positivity at all times. that's what art is about right.

Seriously bro I can't believe how much you type....... I mean you're good at riling people up on a forum and what not but what's your wpm, like 400?

[The Watcher]

I also love how this thread when on track is centered around "making a living" from music when there are so many other facets at play. If "the album is on it's way out" (which I don't believe for one single second) and there were no more independent record shops or great looking records and everything was reduced to a blogspot link and a jpg image represent the cover, well that would be pretty depressing, no? But according to the "new model" you'd get a cool t-shirt or a button? not that I think that would ever actually happen but that's probably the worst reality for music I've ever heard.......

I think I'll go record shopping today, and I think I'll quit rolling my eyes at the idea of a fake holiday like record store day.........

[nicfit]

nik brings the lulz and people actually read his long posts.
grade a-mazing.
I download music and buy music.
I like buying stuff I like.
Especially when the packaging etc. is interesting/well conceived/cleverly put together/etc.
End.
Have fun!

[jonathan]

Yeah yeah. You never said what you're advocating for... I am quite curious.

[jonathan]

I mean, don't wear yourself out. It's all in good fun, you know.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by kinnikpasswordforgetter

i don't feel the obligation to advocate something else (althought if you bother to read what i said it can be inferred) just because i'm criticizing something.

after 2 pages worth of responding to your whinging i'm exhausted.

make a thread or wait till i decide to get round to it.

(but i warn you, it's all nasty and mean and there's no room for enjoyment ANYWHERE). bring your pitchfork and flaming torch.

You're making it out like other people who disagree with you never feel negative about certain things.
You're doing it to avoid giving a direct answer to questions you've been asked on this thread more than once. Is it all too exhausting and tedious? Perhaps you should use some of the time you spend being antagonistic elaborating your point in a less evasive manner.

[Genteel Death]

You are under obligation to provide an alternative, if you put an argument forward against another. What makes this exhausting and tedious for you is that your alternative would be more suited to a global village of heavily medicated mongoloids living under the dictatorship of a giant cockroach on a planet ravaged by wars against aliens wearing your mother's best clothes. Something like that.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

Originally Posted by kinnikpasswordforgetter

i don't know if i should even protest at that idea because i doubt even you believe it. if i was to be jealous of the supposed 'meaning' inherent in this stuff, i'd be an idiot. i would be pining after the saccharine navel gazing 'me and my inner language of emotional fufillment is all that matters' garbage that only conceals the subjects knowledge of the utter meaningless of what it is they are doing.

the fact that you think its either this or nothing says a lot.

Life is momentary. We can only do our best to make the world a better place, while it seems that everything else would work agaisnt that. Momentary pleasures. Momentary acts of charity. They are forgotton while momentary acts of violence last thousands of years and keep fueling hate.

So if the world is so fucked, and life is momentary, maybe some ppl enjoy the short, momentary relief they get from music.

What is better? causing momentary relief? or posting negative thoughts and hating on people in momentary lashing outs on the internet?

You piss off most people here, but only for a few minutes.

When you upset me here I forget about it minutes later, after I post my retorts. As I'm sure most people here do as well.

So, how does it make you feel to know that you waste just as much time here posting away as some of us do making music?

At least we are wasting our time and energy in the real world, and not on the internet.


So, no, maybe you're not jealous, but at least some ppl can feel worth from their lives, even if you think they are wasting their time.

But you are wasting your time trying to sway us from what makes us happy. Sorry you cannot be happy.

I doubt even the gnarliest post/burn you've ever delt to me gave you an ounce of happiness.

That is what he was trying to say, in less words.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

A better reply could be said from eugene's post in another, unrelated thread.

"Everyone has major struggles in their life, which sucks goat testes, but the beauty of existence comes in the form of overcoming those obstacles. Think about any rags to riches American dream story... isn't that just the most beautiful thing in the world?"