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Old Today, 01:00 PM   #23501
Severian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Eugene Felikson
Few movies r more fucked up than Martyrs. I always forget that one

And Anti-Christ.

I actually donít think Iíve seen Martyrs, but Iíve talked about it with people here, and my impression is that, yes, hella fucked up.

I donít know that Iíve ever seen a movie as upsetting as Anti-Christ, especially since I watched it with my girlfriend during a casual horror movie binge, and it turned into a really fucking sick, horrid, dream-haunting experience neither of us will ever forget.
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Old Today, 01:26 PM   #23502
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For some reason I thought you'd seen it. All I can say is keep an open mind. Like all of Ford Westerns, it's an origin story, but not about iconic figures (Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday) or events (the gunfight at the O.K Corral) but for an idea of America. So the underlying politics inevitably rub some the wrong way (I'm sure every NRA member has this on their shelf) but a more open mind will hopefully see beyond all that. For me it's the film where Ford proved that a lowly genre film could be the platform for a kind of cinema every bit as intelligent and visually beautiful as anything that was coming out of Europe.
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Old Today, 01:32 PM   #23503
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no, we talked about it before when i panned some of the political subtext in the searchers, or maybe it was even way before that talking about stagecoach.

wait, no, i saw it! yes! the whole “undiscovered country” business ha ha ha

i remember nothing of it but that bit

maybe it was on a shitty disc from the library or something. vague recollections now.

hmmm... fuck the “undiscovered” part lol. i live with the injuns.
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Old Today, 01:56 PM   #23504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian
And Anti-Christ.

I actually donít think Iíve seen Martyrs, but Iíve talked about it with people here, and my impression is that, yes, hella fucked up.

I donít know that Iíve ever seen a movie as upsetting as Anti-Christ, especially since I watched it with my girlfriend during a casual horror movie binge, and it turned into a really fucking sick, horrid, dream-haunting experience neither of us will ever forget.

Trust me, I've seen both films and yes, Anti-Christ is fucked up but Martyrs is something else. The problem with talking about it and its notoriety is it inevitably translates as an "I dare you" statement. Just ignore it and move on. Life's hard enough as it is.
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Old Today, 02:01 PM   #23505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
 


My Darling Clementine

Still my all-time favourite film

 

I donít know who you are but, between this and Bresson, we may be the same. My favorite film as well.

Iím seeing you both on the political subtext of Ford but I am on my phone commuting to work and itís hard to reply succinctly. Iíll get back on it though because I love this film with all my heart but Iíve never read anything overtly political in it like in ďThe SearchersĒ.
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Old Today, 03:01 PM   #23506
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Joaquin Phoenix as Joker should finally yield a Batman movie worth watching. Scheduled for release in October.
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Old Today, 03:05 PM   #23507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDom
I love this film with all my heart

I think that's the crux of it. Its greatness has nothing to do with any potential political reading. It's certainly not a sloganeering film. If anything, I think it's as much about Henry Fonda's performance as it si Ford's direction or ideology. That slow walk he takes with Clementine to the church. The awkwardness of their kiss at the end. The look he gives Doc Holliday during the Shakespeare recital when he realises he's dying. I know Ford will be forever associated with John Wayne but I think Fonda understood what Ford was about on a human level better than anyone.

And who'd have thought Victor Mature, of all people, would have a performance like that in him?
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Old Today, 03:05 PM   #23508
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ok this seems to have refresjed my proto-alzheimers

Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
funny you mention him, just watched "my darling clementine" this past weekend and we thought it was pretty great-- it has a lot of funny moments for a gunslinging melodrama. sucka was pretty great at setting up his shots too, and the actors were great. yeah, some brown people stereotypes that can't be helped with the times, but we're old enough that we can laugh at them. actually, did you know that john ford was made an honorary navajo? funny and true. it was also funny to see tombstone, az, right around the corner from monument valley-- but you'd only know that if you know the area. anyway, some day you'll see for yourself, ha ha ha.

it’s from 5 years ago: http://sonicyouth.com/gossip/showpos...ostcount=17569

the undiscovered country part is elsewhere i will look
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Old Today, 03:08 PM   #23509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
Probably my favourite film of all time. It's historical inaccuracies are as irrelevant as they'd be in a piece of Greek myth and, as you say, the racism is just a mark of its age. It's the hugeness of its message that I love: the attempt to make a kind of American origin story out of hackneyed figures from history. Like the scene where Doc Holliday completes the 'undiscovered country' line from Hamlet. Of course that never actually happened but Ford invented it and in-so-doing managed to create an entire 'idea' of America, as a nation. Big stuff.
oh here it is
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Old Today, 03:10 PM   #23510
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I'm amazed someone's actually made a screenshot of the exact moment when Fonda realises Doc Holliday is dying.

 
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Old Today, 03:12 PM   #23511
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in 2017

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Originally Posted by !@#$%!
i love ford as a master of the epic western and awesome old-timey action but in the end i have to reject some of his stuff on an ideological basis, in that i don't share his love of the empire and what wsome of his movies stand for.

in the case of the searchers, to me, it's saying that in order to protect the frontier home and save the white princess from the savages you need some sort of atrocious asshole, warts and all. a bit like "a few good men" but from the other side of the fence. "everything he's done, it's worth it"

today he'd be a trump voter.

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Old Today, 03:23 PM   #23512
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so demonyo what do you mean by “idea of America”? what idea is this?
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Old Today, 03:36 PM   #23513
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I think in essence it's the one laid out by Frederick Turner in his Frontier thesis.

Although I'd never say his films are a simple reproduction of it.
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Old Today, 03:47 PM   #23514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evollove
Joaquin Phoenix as Joker should finally yield a Batman movie worth watching. Scheduled for release in October.

Fuckiní LOL
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Old Today, 03:49 PM   #23515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
Trust me, I've seen both films and yes, Anti-Christ is fucked up but Martyrs is something else. The problem with talking about it and its notoriety is it inevitably translates as an "I dare you" statement. Just ignore it and move on. Life's hard enough as it is.

I understand and I do not feel dared and I will move on.
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Old Today, 05:22 PM   #23516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
I think in essence it's the one laid out by Frederick Turner in his Frontier thesis.

Although I'd never say his films are a simple reproduction of it.
right so when you hear “the undiscovered country” you don’t hear “death” but it’s more “code” (so to speak) for “america, in the making”, correct?

or no?

i just wanna make sure i read what you mean.

hahaha anyway seems like i enjoyed that movie but that i remember fuck all has been quite a shock
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Old Today, 06:20 PM   #23517
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I think it does both: it indicates Doc Holliday's death (literally and more metaphorically as an icon of the 'wild' west) but also the idea of a nation in the making. It could've just as easily been recited by Ethan in The Searchers.

The building of a church in Tombstone might at 1st seem to contradict the thesis but the rowdy dance they have suggests a West that's becoming civilised, but on its own terms. And Wyatt's brother Morgan suggests a frontier logic to the law at the OK Corral, when he kills the father of the Clantons after Wyatt tells him he can live but must leave Tombstone.
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