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Old 12.23.2009, 07:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glice
You can't be 'one of' and 'lone'; first, because it's syntactically poor form (a crime a true historian would never commit). Second, because I qualify as well.

hence "one of the"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon boy
having lived in germany for a number of years and having visited poland many many times i have never seen any bragging in relation to the holocaust. germans are not felt to be victimised in relation to the holocaust.

so are we to tear down the railroads that built america becuase they could be seen as bragging about slave labour. sitting in your home and commenting on a place you have never been to and seemingly know nothing about are rude.

you miss the point.. It is not that there are people literally bragging with their mouths, its that the existence of these things themselves is bragging on their behalf!

You are continuing to be even sillier JonBoy, but you obviously have some emotional attachment to this topic, so it is easily forgivable, but please, contribute something to the reasoning without name calling and a bunch of "if only you.." sayings..

you don't need to point the finger at me, I didn't build the fucking things, they just offend me to see they still exist. If i can't be offended at the symbols of such horrible suffering, what is offensive then?
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jon boy
having lived in germany for a number of years and having visited poland many many times i have never seen any bragging in relation to the holocaust. germans are not felt to be victimised in relation to the holocaust.

so are we to tear down the railroads that built america becuase they could be seen as bragging about slave labour. sitting in your home and commenting on a place you have never been to and seemingly know nothing about are rude.

I will say though, I'm sure you noticed that a lot of younger Berliners (and possibly other Germans) seem to feel that there's a sense that the international sense of the war being the German's fault shouldn't be transmitted onto their generation. Not quite 'let's forget about it' but 'this was a long time ago'. Did you find that?
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:22 PM   #23
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this thread has too many words to sift through.

has it been mentioned that the sign was found several days ago?
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floatingslowly
this thread has too many words to sift through.

has it been mentioned that the sign was found several days ago?

yes, I just have been festering over this for the week, and finally it broke through to the surface so I posted this thread to discuss, and I am very pleased with the discussion it has sparked
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floatingslowly
this thread has too many words to sift through.

has it been mentioned that the sign was found several days ago?
Why would interrupt a perfectly good thread with pointless information like that?

ITT: tl;dr - some bullshit.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you miss the point.. It is not that there are people literally bragging with their mouths, its that the existence of these things themselves is bragging on their behalf!

You are continuing to be even sillier JonBoy, but you obviously have some emotional attachment to this topic, so it is easily forgivable, but please, contribute something to the reasoning without name calling and a bunch of "if only you.." sayings..

you don't need to point the finger at me, I didn't build the fucking things, they just offend me to see they still exist. If i can't be offended at the symbols of such horrible suffering, what is offensive then?

I think Jon fully appreciates the necessity of sensitivity in not prescribing what should and shouldn't be done to memorialise something that killed millions of people. I-man is all well and good, but regardless of claims to universalism of human nature, it's very dangerous to claim the best way to mourn (and I'd say that equally if you were Jewish, Catholic, Gypsy, disabled, gay, communist or dissenter, to cover the larger groups affected by the holocaust).
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Originally Posted by Savage Clone
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
hence "one of the"


you miss the point.. It is not that there are people literally bragging with their mouths, its that the existence of these things themselves is bragging on their behalf!

You are continuing to be even sillier JonBoy, but you obviously have some emotional attachment to this topic, so it is easily forgivable, but please, contribute something to the reasoning without name calling and a bunch of "if only you.." sayings..

you don't need to point the finger at me, I didn't build the fucking things, they just offend me to see they still exist. If i can't be offended at the symbols of such horrible suffering, what is offensive then?

right, i suppose being annoyed by someone saying that they would rejoice when someone burns down auschwitz is a bit too far right?

once again i think you have very little idea what your talking about.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glice
I will say though, I'm sure you noticed that a lot of younger Berliners (and possibly other Germans) seem to feel that there's a sense that the international sense of the war being the German's fault shouldn't be transmitted onto their generation. Not quite 'let's forget about it' but 'this was a long time ago'. Did you find that?

i did certainly. i know that many people still become very upset when talking about the war, especially the holocaust. there is also a sense that 'you cant keep brining things up because it really wasnt anything to do with me'. being english we know what thats like.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
Personally, I think they leave the camps up as bragging. I think in Germany the camps stay up just like in the South Confederate flags still fly high (to shame!!)...

The Germans want the whole world to forever remember and brag about one of the worst nightmares in human history..
Translation: SuchFriendsAreDangerous knows nothing about mainstream German culture.


Coincidently, I heard pretty much the same sentiment against holocaust memorialization but from the claim that its exploited for Zionist political currency.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon boy
right, i suppose being annoyed by someone saying that they would rejoice when someone burns down auschwitz is a bit too far right?

once again i think you have very little idea what your talking about.

dude, come off it already! Why do you feel so strongly about these death camps remaining? Is it really that offensive an idea to burn them down? I honestly don't understand why you are taking so much offense to me wanting to get rid of such horrible places, I can understand that you and other people feel solace and commemoration in leaving these up as memorials, but is it really such a far fetched idea to replace them with conventional memorials? After all, MOST of the camps HAVE BEEN burned down, destroyed and replaced with less appalling memorials.. why do these few remain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbradley
Translation: SuchFriendsAreDangerous knows very little about mainstream German culture.

who is talking about mainstream? I know very well that the VAST majority of germans and the world are not bragging, just as the Confederate sympathizers of today do not represent the majority or even minority of Americans.. but to those few idiot contemporary confederates, it is plain and out-right bragging.. and for those few Germans who perhaps still harbor nazism and nazi sympathy, the camps remain so.

Do you honestly think that EVERY German is some-how miraculously full of guilt for their parents and grandparents and for those old enough, even their own actions in the holocaust? If not every american is ashamed of slavery or genocide of the indians, I am sure that there are those germans who harbor the same kinds of backwards sympathy and revivalism.. in fact, last time I checked Neo-nazism was on the rise in our generation of germans and oddly enough some youth in eastern european countries.. you should not think I am as ignorant as you all wish

Rest assured there are still Germans who wish the holocaust was a success, and seeing those buildings and camp remain standing is like a statement which says, "hey, at least we were close! Look at how close we came! Look at how much we achieved!"

Regardless of what we innocent folks and survivors make of these camps for commemoration, the simply and obvious fact remains that they were places of wholesale mass murder and horrible inhuman suffering, and whatever we think of them, the fact that they remain means a little piece of that suffering continues..
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
yes, I just have been festering over this for the week, and finally it broke through to the surface so I posted this thread to discuss, and I am very pleased with the discussion it has sparked

well, in that case, you should be far more incensed that it's been cut into three pieces. even if they weld it back together, it's bound to never be the same.

and granted, every white man on the planet is a racist twat, but from all accounts it sounds as if the men who took the sign were idiots who did it to make a quick euro.

the fact that the sign was recovered so quickly only points toward bungling opportunism.

carry on, soldiers.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:48 PM   #32
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You've said it yourself. They are appalling. That's the point.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:51 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
who is talking about mainstream?
I stopped reading here because

"The Germans want the whole world to forever remember and brag about one of the worst nightmares in human history.."

Not a radical fringe of Germans, not some portion of Germans, "THE Germans."
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbradley
I stopped reading here because

"The Germans want the whole world to forever remember and brag about one of the worst nightmares in human history.."

Not a radical fringe of Germans, not some portion of Germans, "THE Germans."

sorry, my implication was "The Germans (who harbor nazi sympathy and neo-nazi sentiments)"

is the clarification better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glice
You've said it yourself. They are appalling. That's the point.

I get that.. but my point is that perhaps they are bit too appalling, and lack class, sensitivity, taste or dignity which are ESSENTIAL characteristics of ANY memorial?

The last class I took at university was a Genocide and Holocaust class, and we discussed this several times. My Jewish studies professor who has taken dozens of trips to these things explained all the angles you guys are presenting to me, but just still don't buy into it. At the end of the class, even he conceded that a) many people are not going there as reverently as others (ie, some are just macabre tourists) and b) true, they can serve as potent symbols for neo-nazis.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:56 PM   #35
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And if you were to say that we should expunge a Civil War battlefield memorial because it was a the spot of a Confederate victory and can serve as a sight of pride for a few Confederacy worshipers, I would oppose you there, as well.

In all, SuchFriends, you often come across as a spiritual fascist.
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Old 12.23.2009, 07:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
sorry, my implication was "The Germans (who harbor nazi sympathy and neo-nazi sentiments)"

is the clarification better?
I wonder if we might want to forget the crucifixion of Christ because there are still some people out there who harbor anti-Christian sentiments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWl1XG8PFnY
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Old 12.23.2009, 08:03 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by pbradley
And if you were to say that we should expunge a Civil War battlefield memorial because it was a the spot of a Confederate victory and can serve as a sight of pride for a few Confederacy worshipers, I would oppose you there, as well.

In all, SuchFriends, you often come across as a spiritual fascist.
this has nothing to do with spirituality. this is reality. I'm sorry if this comes off as an offense, but truly I loathe such places, and hope earnestly that my grandchildren do no have the opportunity to walk in the exact same camps that hurt and killed so many people. We can remember, we can commemorate, but we should to preserve evil out of political correctness or misplaced sympathies.. I am sure that in the end, no one would regret or miss those camps after they are gone, which is why all in all this is a silly debate. I will back off it, I have said enough already. I see all of your points, I just can't empathize with them. I don't necessarily want to convert you all into my opinion or belief, I am very content just to have these discussions in the first place. Much love to you all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbradley
I wonder if we might want to forget the crucifixion of Christ because there are still some people out there who harbor anti-Christian sentiments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWl1XG8PFnY

Don't be so naive. As a Christian I do not need to see the actual cross of Jesus, nor do I need to see that actual places of the Martyrs.. I don't need to see the burn mark on the floor where they burned Joan of Arc to remember, seen? In fact, I wouldn't WANT to see such a thing, the memory is harsh enough. In Rwanda they left bodies in the field to decompose in plain site as a reminder, which is sad to me. Bury the dead, put up headstones, signs, memorials etc, but discard to machetes that did the deed, do not honor the weapon of destruction, honor those destroyed.
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Old 12.23.2009, 08:04 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by floatingslowly
well, in that case, you should be far more incensed that it's been cut into three pieces.

this was written based on thread title alone.

I'm busy trying to purge the smell of burnt pancakes from the house and blindly assumed you were mad that some racist fucks desecrated a historical monument.

my bad.

are you high??

the shit isn't there for bragging rights. it's to remind everyone that blind faith in man leads to ruin.

what in the fuck is going on in here??
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Old 12.23.2009, 08:05 PM   #39
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Again: you can't prescribe for other people's mourning. Which is why Bradders has just called you a spiritual fascist.
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Old 12.23.2009, 08:06 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by floatingslowly

what in the fuck is going on in here??

Bradders just called you a spiritual fascist. He's editing his posts quickly though.
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Message boards are the last vestige of the spent masturbator, still intent on wasting time in some neg-heroic fashion. Be damned all who sail here.

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Originally Posted by Savage Clone
Last time I was in Chicago I spent an hour in a Nazi submarine with a banjo player.
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