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Old 10.14.2009, 11:06 AM   #281
infinitemusic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
Fair enough about Plastic People. My basic point though is that regardless of whether a band intend to be political or not they can have a political affect simply by existing in the way that they do during a given time or place.

Well that's exactly what Notyourfriend was saying about Sonic Youth, wasn' it?

Quote:
In that sense Sly and the Family Stone were political not just because they occasionally sang songs with a political content but because their very existence (as a band that included black and white members) managed to critique certain race-based issues very much in the air at the time. SatFS didn't so much make political statements in their songs as in their very being. Just as a woman making a film in Iran is a political statement regardless of what that film may be about.

That's a really interesting way to look at it and I think it really shows that there are different ways to consider something political, or to decide if something is political or not. If Sly and the Family Stone hadn't done any overtly political songs, i think it would make this point better, but anyway... I think that this way of looking at things is more "academic". I guess I don't really have a point to make here, just talking. But this point is really interesting to me.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:08 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitemusic
I guess I don't really have a point to make here, just talking.

Yeah.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:08 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
That's exactly what I was playing on when I called knox a bitch several times on this thread. Isn't it a major contraddiction that she has then asked me to stop calling her a word she used to describe herself in the first place? The word ''bitch'' is inoffenisve when used as a light-hearted exchange between people who know where they stand when it comes to female emancipation, yet it still remains a mean-spirited, derogatory word used to describe a woman in the wrong mouth. Same with the word ''nigger'' and black people.

And yet you continued to call her a bitch.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:12 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
There is a world of a difference between appearing intelligent and being intelligent.

The more evident the desperation to appear intelligent, the less likely the being part.

See this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Bands shouldn't really take it in their hands to address issues where they ultimately have the last word on, unless they distill their content for creative consumption. It's great that they can be a vessel to channel the feelings of discontent generated by whatever affront is mounted on who and where, but really, if a clear separation of roles is kept in an order which clarifies better what the political is, and what the creative can actually achieve in order to represent, voluntarily or not, its momentum, there would be less confusion, and better music. Or something like that.

Do you even know what any of those words mean?
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:27 AM   #285
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It sounds like the kind of crap students write in essays in order to reach the number of words when they simply have nothing to say.

I know, because I did that a lot.

Everyone, EVERYONE on this thread had a better, more insightful, more interesting point than GD's.

But he knows what all music should be like in order to be better, he knows what we all should be like in order to be better, I just find contradictory the part in which he accuses other people of not being able to deal with different opinions.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:30 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Bands shouldn't really take it in their hands to address issues where they ultimately have the last word on, unless they distill their content for creative consumption.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in terms of self-critique. Music, especially Rock music, seems to operate primarily as a monologue to its audience, rather than a dialogue with it. Unless a band can find a way around that (as, to a degree, happened with dance music in the late 80s-early 90s) it will remain having the last word in a way that seems totally counter-intuitive to it being able to operate as a forum for any kind of effective political debate.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:35 AM   #287
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Ok iŽll try to decipher.

Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Bands shouldn't really take it in their hands to address issues where they ultimately have the last word on 1, unless they distill their content for creative consumption 2. It's great that they can be a vessel to channel the feelings of discontent generated by whatever affront is mounted on who and where 3, but really, if a clear separation of roles is kept in an order which clarifies better what the political is, and what the creative can actually achieve in order to represent, voluntarily or not, its momentum, there would be less confusion 4, and better music. Or something like that.5

Let us try:


1- here he says bands should basically write music about writing music, because that's what they know of. None of us should bother voicing opinions about things we have no last say on.
2- unless, of course, they feel strongly enough about certain things.
3- its a great thing that art can express people's feelings, thoughts and frustrations, that may be caused by political issues.
4- he finds it too confusing that you have to have your own interpretation in every little case, so making it a rule for bands to not get involved in that kind of subject would help him with that confusion.
5- oh wait, he doesn't know what heŽs talking about either.
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:38 AM   #288
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I don't know anymore. What's the meaning of all this infinite....infinite....nevermind?
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:39 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
That's exactly the point I was trying to make in terms of self-critique. Music, especially Rock music, seems to operate primarily as a monologue to its audience, rather than a dialogue with it. Unless a band can find a way around that (as, to a degree, happened with dance music in the late 80s-early 90s) it will remain having the last word in a way that seems totally counter-intuitive to it being able to operate as a forum for any kind of effective political debate.

but perhaps their goal is not to operate as a forum for a political debate, but more like voice their own feelings and allow people to find comforting in relating to that.

even tho, examples of art influencing politics and vice-versa exist. take rock and roll, for example.

some artists might find political issues inspiring, some might not, so what? why should anyone say how they should or shouldn't do it, what they should address or not address?
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Old 10.14.2009, 11:47 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
but perhaps their goal is not to operate as a forum for a political debate, but more like voice their own feelings and allow people to find comforting in relating to that.

even tho, examples of art influencing politics and vice-versa exist. take rock and roll, for example.

Yeah, although I fail to see how music has ever really influenced politics. Music has at certain times been a part of broader movements (like Dylan's association with the civil rights movement) that has ended up having some impact on policy but I can't think of an instance where it's done it on its own.

Saying that, I suppose it could be argued that Band Aid wasn't part of a broader movement but did affect aid policy in certain countries. I'm struggling to think of any other examples though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
some artists might find political issues inspiring, some might not, so what? why should anyone say how they should or shouldn't do it, what they should address or not address?

I don't think it's a question of whether they should be allowed to so much as how useful it is when they do.
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Old 10.14.2009, 02:44 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefeli
same goes with me and feminism. you would say i am one, it was more apparent maybe when i was very young, but in reality im more of a human rights person, workers rights, citizen's rights..(and big time anti-violence person)..that there shouldnt be an issue of whether women should do this or that, because they are humans too. its almost like i take this for granted, that this is how things should be and act from there and on.

The reason I call myself a feminist is because women are commonly excluded from human rights dialogue. Their bodies are taken to be the transmitters of culture. It is important for me to emphasize my feminism because otherwise, women's rights will be ignored. This is because it has become so naturalized to think of women as fitting into certain subservient roles because of their biology. Women and men are certainly different, but it is impossible to examine their differences objectively without the influence of cultural bearings.

That being said, I am a feminist because i am a humanist.
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Old 10.14.2009, 02:47 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
Yeah, although I fail to see how music has ever really influenced politics. Music has at certain times been a part of broader movements (like Dylan's association with the civil rights movement) that has ended up having some impact on policy but I can't think of an instance where it's done it on its own.

Saying that, I suppose it could be argued that Band Aid wasn't part of a broader movement but did affect aid policy in certain countries. I'm struggling to think of any other examples though.



I don't think it's a question of whether they should be allowed to so much as how useful it is when they do.

I don't know if it's a question of music influencing politics as much as music providing solidarity and being the creative expression of a particular climate.
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:14 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
It sounds like the kind of crap students write in essays in order to reach the number of words when they simply have nothing to say.

I know, because I did that a lot.

Everyone, EVERYONE on this thread had a better, more insightful, more interesting point than GD's.

But he knows what all music should be like in order to be better, he knows what we all should be like in order to be better, I just find contradictory the part in which he accuses other people of not being able to deal with different opinions.

It's like that plus the first time you find out that your computer has a thesaurus.
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:16 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
but perhaps their goal is not to operate as a forum for a political debate, but more like voice their own feelings and allow people to find comforting in relating to that.

Which is exactly what it is in almost all cases.

Quote:
even tho, examples of art influencing politics and vice-versa exist. take rock and roll, for example.

some artists might find political issues inspiring, some might not, so what? why should anyone say how they should or shouldn't do it, what they should address or not address?
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:21 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notyourfiend
The reason I call myself a feminist is because women are commonly excluded from human rights dialogue. Their bodies are taken to be the transmitters of culture. It is important for me to emphasize my feminism because otherwise, women's rights will be ignored. This is because it has become so naturalized to think of women as fitting into certain subservient roles because of their biology. Women and men are certainly different, but it is impossible to examine their differences objectively without the influence of cultural bearings.

That being said, I am a feminist because i am a humanist.

I absolutely agree.

There is no way that humanity in general can progress if 50% is still unequal because of their gender. If you can't improve it for women, you can't improve it for what they call "minorities".
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:25 PM   #296
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Do you two ever go to anger management classes, by any chance?
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:25 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knox
I absolutely agree.

There is no way that humanity in general can progress if 50% is still unequal because of their gender. If you can't improve it for women, you can't improve it for what they call "minorities".

yes! and if you look at history, women's needs in social movements are constantly pushed aside because men are assumed to have some natural hierarchy.
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:28 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Do you two ever go to anger management classes, by any chance?

I don't think that anybody on this thread is particularly angry.
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:28 PM   #299
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You'll find some women are much smarter than you two and most men combined. But they are to smart to take you this much into consideration.
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Old 10.14.2009, 03:30 PM   #300
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I don't think that anybody on this thread is particularly angry.
thats not the way it comes across.
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