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Old 06.17.2006, 02:09 AM   #21
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Relevance isn't the same as popularity, though. They're relevant in the same way The Beatles are relevant (obviously to a much lesser extent). Half the band is dead. The Beatles no longer exist. They're still one of the most influential and relevant rock musicians today.

I think what's meant is whether they still affect music. And they do. Aside from indirect influence (Sonic Youth->Nirvana->Grohl->infinite chain of influence, and that's just one painfully obvious band), there are still countless bands that take direct influence from SY. Weezer does, for one. And it's not just that. Music goes through phases. SY's influence will recede and advance forever, in small or great amounts at a time. Past albums still hold relevance.

Even so, every band has a quality of influence. It's a matter of how much. I think ultimately Sonic Youth is a force to be reckoned with - maybe not these albums, but their overall legacy. However, they are not dominant in modern music as it stands right now. Today Run DMC, Public Enemy, Tupac, etc. have the market cornered.
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Old 06.17.2006, 04:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcoffee
I'd say that SY are very important to modern popular culture. It's just that most people don't know it. Without SY, we wouldn't have had the explosion of Nirvana; at least not on the scale that it had happend on. In fact, most of the alternative rock culture would not be the same without Sonic Youth's influence. We would have a very different music culture right now if it were not for Sonic Youth. It's just a great disservice to the band and good music in general for most people to be so ignorant and unkowing of the existance of such innovative and genius artists.


Maybe indirectly? I can buy that, but even that is a bit of a stretch. That's like putting all of Nirvana's fame & fortune in a tiny ball and saying, "HA! this wouldn't be yours if it weren't for SY!".

That really remains to be seen. We can't "automatically" say Nirvana's success is directly linked to SY. Who's to say that Nirvana themselves "wrote and performed" their own songs?
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Old 06.17.2006, 08:13 AM   #23
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no, they are totally relevant, they may not sell a million records but they are one of the most influent bands ever...

the problem is that they are still on the underground field ina way. But i'm sure they'll always be remembered in contrast with bands that keep playing all the time on mtv during one year and are easily forgotten within five years or less.

and besides they have already created masterpieces. Daydream Nation may have influenced pop cullture much more than Nevermind,
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Old 06.17.2006, 08:20 AM   #24
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I can't find any evidence of relevance.

Just because they influenced a band who influenced a band who influenced a band means nothing.

The kids at my high school--even the ones vaguely familiar with the concept of non-mainstream music--had no idea who Sonic Youth were.

Therefore, blah blah blah. Blah.
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Old 06.17.2006, 08:26 AM   #25
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american football is gay. it's like rugby but with ridiculous padding and protection...
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Old 06.17.2006, 08:27 AM   #26
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american football is gay. it's like rugby but with ridiculous padding and protection...

Now that, I agree with.
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Old 06.17.2006, 08:50 AM   #27
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I think if someone really liked Sonic Youth a lot, they would say that SY are popular culture.
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Old 06.17.2006, 09:11 AM   #28
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Or cultishly devoted...
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Old 06.17.2006, 10:37 AM   #29
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I think most of you are confusing Popular Culture with Underground.

Again, Pop Culture=Brittany Spears, Madonna, Backstreet Boys, Ashley/Jessica Simpson, 50-Cent, Eminem, etc.


Remember people, in order for something to be considered "popular culture", they must first be known by their popularity and also be emulated in the culture.

There is nothing about SY that has been emulated by the majority or mainstream or even by their fans.

I think most of you people don't have a clue what is and isn't Pop Culture. I don't mean to be rude, but seriously, you can't be saying "SY is pop culture" when mainstream america does not know of SY and is not emulating them in a certain kind of way.

If I'm wrong, give me a way mainstream american youth and culture is emulating what SY is/does. If you can do that, then I can buy SY's importance in Pop Culture.
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Old 06.17.2006, 01:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
I can't find any evidence of relevance.

Just because they influenced a band who influenced a band who influenced a band means nothing.

The kids at my high school--even the ones vaguely familiar with the concept of non-mainstream music--had no idea who Sonic Youth were.

Therefore, blah blah blah. Blah.

Well, then I'd havbe to say that those kids are pretty fucking stupid. I knew about Sy when I was in high school. and so did some of my teachers. The problem is, no one (at least 90% of people) bothers to dig beyond what is handed to us by major record labels.

We all know about Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains and Soundgarden during the early 90's alternative rock revolution, and nowadays we're all aware of Thursday, Senses Fail, My Chemical Romance, 50 Cent, Jay Z, etc. etc. But the rock community would not be what it is today without the influential input of Sonic Youth. Now, Im not saying some of these bands wouldn't exist, or that rock music wouldn't exist, but it just wouldn't exist in the same way. It would be different. How different is hard to tell. We don't know. But I know that if it weren't for Sonic Youth's influence on younger, more popular bands we wouldn't have the same rock scene we have today. For better or for worse.
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Old 06.17.2006, 01:21 PM   #31
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Now I believe that most of the bands that take direct influence from SY are more underground bands that will not amount to much popularity. It's just that way. But it doesn't mean that the band doesn't have far reaching influence. They tour the world. They have sold a decent amount of records considering the type of music they play. Most people just swallow the lame, watered-down, mass-marketed pop jism, and so they don't understand what SY is doing or where they come from artistically, so they're automatically out of the fold. 80-95% of people will never get SY. They just can't comprehend it. They come from a different musical culture and they just don't get it! But I know that although SY may not be nearly as popular as some of the bands that they directly and indirectly influence, they at least have still reached out to a significant minority of people, and that's ok by me. If you can reach just one person with good rock and roll, then you've accomplished something.
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Old 06.17.2006, 01:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcoffee
Now I believe that most of the bands that take direct influence from SY are more underground bands that will not amount to much popularity. It's just that way. But it doesn't mean that the band doesn't have far reaching influence. They tour the world. They have sold a decent amount of records considering the type of music they play. Most people just swallow the lame, watered-down, mass-marketed pop jism, and so they don't understand what SY is doing or where they come from artistically, so they're automatically out of the fold. 80-95% of people will never get SY. They just can't comprehend it. They come from a different musical culture and they just don't get it! But I know that although SY may not be nearly as popular as some of the bands that they directly and indirectly influence, they at least have still reached out to a significant minority of people, and that's ok by me. If you can reach just one person with good rock and roll, then you've accomplished something.



I don't think you have a clear understanding of what pop culture is, so why are you even debating it?

Nobody is discrediting SY's influence on underground or even mainstream bands. Nobody. What we are talking about is pure simple pop culture, things like Anna Nicole Smith, Madonna, 50 Cent, Ashley/Jessica Simpson, MTV, iPods, things like that.


Sorry, but Sonic Youth does not belong in that group of popular culture.

Maybe you had a couple of "hip" teachers, nobody's debating that either. What we are trying to tell you is that sonic youth has not reached to the level of popularity of popular culture to the point where people are emulating, dressing, stylizing, imitating Sonic Youth.

Just be glad that Sonic Youth is not relevant to pop culture. If you didn't know, pop culture is direct result of big business and marketing of young culture for the sake of big dollar.
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Old 06.17.2006, 01:40 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcoffee
Well, then I'd havbe to say that those kids are pretty fucking stupid. I knew about Sy when I was in high school. and so did some of my teachers. The problem is, no one (at least 90% of people) bothers to dig beyond what is handed to us by major record labels.

Stupidity has absolutely nothing to do with how many bands you can name-drop. I know some incredibly smart people who have horrid taste in music, but then again, music doesn't seem as important to them as it does to people who post here. So they probably couldn't care less about what we think of the music they listen to. It's not as if they would all become rabid Sonic Youth fans if only they could hear the music. People have asked me on many occasions if I could burn a CD of songs that I like, or let them borrow my favorite Sonic Youth album, and out of all of those, I've only received one positive response (and that was from my best friend, who I already had much in common with). Just accept the fact that, for the most part, Sonic Youth is not a band most people find pleasure in listening to.
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Old 06.17.2006, 02:04 PM   #34
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For rock music to have any relevance or vitality in modern culture, it would have been hard to rely on bands like Guns 'N' Roses, Bon Jovi, Def Leppard or Poison; not discounting their talent or musical ability of course. These bands were mostly stagnant, rehashing themes and motifs that had been used, reused and recycled countless times by the 80's. If it were up to them, rock music would have gone the way of the dodo, or at least confined only to people who like Guns 'N' Roses and 70's classic rock and nothing else.

Now bands like Sonic Youth, Pavement, My Bloody Valentine, Jesus And Mary Chain, R.E.M, Husker Du, The Pixies, et al; were; on the other hand; giving rock a jumpstart in creativity, originality and dynamism. They pushed the envelope of what rock music could be and what could be accepted as rock. But they did all their experimentation and envelope-pushing within the boundaries of rock music. This is key to understanding the impact they had. They pushed rock forward into the 21st century, hurrying it along and keeping it fresh, alive and urgent.

Though never as popular or mainstream as the bands mentioned in the first paragraph, they nevertheless had impacted and contributed to the evolution of rock music in a large way; and any similar impact they would have on popular culture or the mainstream would be through the way of rock music of course. Unfortunately in its current incarnation, popular rock music is nothing more than a showboat of fashion, trends and posturing. Popular culture as we know it in the 21st century is, after all; and actually has always been; nothing more than a marketing and image hard sell, the business of ideals and cardboard idols.

The music has always been secondary. Therefore bands like Bon Jovi and Poison and people like Britney Spears and Fred Durst excel at the business strategy and marketing values that dominate the music industry, while bands like Sonic Youth, The Flaming Lips and people like Thom Yorke and Devendra Banhart continue to focus on making music that is exciting, fresh and relevant. But as long as rock music is still relevant within popular culture and the mainstream(which, judging by the standard of Fall Out Boy, Good Charlotte et al, it isn't ) Sonic Youth and other like-minded bands will remain relevant and vital within culture.

P.S. I wasn't aware Billboard had a Top Independent Albums chart. I'm not sure if this is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_charts
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Old 06.18.2006, 01:00 AM   #35
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no ones asked one question.

Who gives a fuck?
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Old 06.18.2006, 06:02 AM   #36
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no ones asked one question.

Who gives a fuck?

A fine point indeed.

'Popular' culture is often a bit of a mis-nomer - I have several groups of friends, all of whom intermingle. To one set of people (loosely, rock fans) SY are well-known purveyers of 'the rock'. Some of them hate them for being pretentious bollocks (punkers mostly). Some of them hate them for being too mainstream (noise/ avant types). Some of them like them (indie/ grunge kids). Some of them are indifferent.

Another group of friends have no idea who they are. They also could probably tell you that Kurt Cobain was in Nirvana, but wouldn't be able to tell you a song of his. They would know who Radiohead were, but wouldn't know any songs, not even Creep.

Rock music is part of popular culture. SY are a small part of this popular culture. To those into certain aspect of pop culture, they are relevant, if not well-liked. To those otherwise inclined, they aren't important.

Contingencies. I hate talking pop culture.

Yeah, ignore this post, please refer to the one immediately before it.
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Old 06.18.2006, 06:09 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
Stupidity has absolutely nothing to do with how many bands you can name-drop. I know some incredibly smart people who have horrid taste in music, but then again, music doesn't seem as important to them as it does to people who post here. So they probably couldn't care less about what we think of the music they listen to. It's not as if they would all become rabid Sonic Youth fans if only they could hear the music. People have asked me on many occasions if I could burn a CD of songs that I like, or let them borrow my favorite Sonic Youth album, and out of all of those, I've only received one positive response (and that was from my best friend, who I already had much in common with). Just accept the fact that, for the most part, Sonic Youth is not a band most people find pleasure in listening to.



A-fucking-christ-MEN
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Old 06.18.2006, 06:17 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alyasa
For rock music to have any relevance or vitality in modern culture, it would have been hard to rely on bands like Guns 'N' Roses, Bon Jovi, Def Leppard or Poison; not discounting their talent or musical ability of course. These bands were mostly stagnant, rehashing themes and motifs that had been used, reused and recycled countless times by the 80's. If it were up to them, rock music would have gone the way of the dodo, or at least confined only to people who like Guns 'N' Roses and 70's classic rock and nothing else.

Now bands like Sonic Youth, Pavement, My Bloody Valentine, Jesus And Mary Chain, R.E.M, Husker Du, The Pixies, et al; were; on the other hand; giving rock a jumpstart in creativity, originality and dynamism. They pushed the envelope of what rock music could be and what could be accepted as rock. But they did all their experimentation and envelope-pushing within the boundaries of rock music. This is key to understanding the impact they had. They pushed rock forward into the 21st century, hurrying it along and keeping it fresh, alive and urgent.

Though never as popular or mainstream as the bands mentioned in the first paragraph, they nevertheless had impacted and contributed to the evolution of rock music in a large way; and any similar impact they would have on popular culture or the mainstream would be through the way of rock music of course. Unfortunately in its current incarnation, popular rock music is nothing more than a showboat of fashion, trends and posturing. Popular culture as we know it in the 21st century is, after all; and actually has always been; nothing more than a marketing and image hard sell, the business of ideals and cardboard idols.

The music has always been secondary. Therefore bands like Bon Jovi and Poison and people like Britney Spears and Fred Durst excel at the business strategy and marketing values that dominate the music industry, while bands like Sonic Youth, The Flaming Lips and people like Thom Yorke and Devendra Banhart continue to focus on making music that is exciting, fresh and relevant. But as long as rock music is still relevant within popular culture and the mainstream(which, judging by the standard of Fall Out Boy, Good Charlotte et al, it isn't ) Sonic Youth and other like-minded bands will remain relevant and vital within culture.

P.S. I wasn't aware Billboard had a Top Independent Albums chart. I'm not sure if this is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_charts


Pop Culture is more than just "music". I think you're missing the boat. Bon Jovi and especially Guns & Roses are more Pop Culture Icons than SY will ever be...just accept it. It isn't because of how "good" the music is. It is about the culture that ends up being cultivated from these bands. There is no "culture" that has been made from Sonic Youth. Just because you like SY and someone likes GnR doesn't make SY "more relevant to po culture". Last I heard, Sonic Youth were not even considered a POP ACT.

Velvet Underground were WAY MORE influential to today's music than SY, and not even VU can be considered "Pop Icons".

I think you have no idea of what Pop Culture really is. And that is ok. Maybe you should read up on Pop Culture, especially from the 50s-70s. I think you're mistakening "cool music" with "pop icons".

SY is relevant to really one culture...underground music. And that's it. Accept it and move on.

Devendra Banhart sucks anyways.
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Old 06.18.2006, 06:21 AM   #39
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alyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's assesalyasa kicks all y'all's asses
Popular culture isn't neccessarily cool, though rock music definitely is.
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Old 06.18.2006, 07:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alyasa
Popular culture isn't neccessarily cool, though rock music definitely is.
The opposite could be totally true though.
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