[RdTv]

well put.

[Daddylikes]

Man, Fuck Israel.

The rest of the Middle East fo sho.

[ricechex]

Originally Posted by chabib

hamas and hezbollah both have popular support because of their successful efforts to bring medical care, food, community programs and a militia that acts in lieu of a standing army unfettered by american dictates. it's no surprise that hamas was elected.

most arabs don't want israel pushed into the sea, but they'd certainly like for israel to release all of the tax money they've stolen from palestinians. they'd like for all of the illegal settlements to be destroyed. they'd like to not have their land carved up into little islands separated by settlements and protected highways for the IDF and settlers.

as an occupying force, israel has responsibilities established in a number of treaties. occupying forces are not allowed to build settlements. they're not allowed to destroy homes. they're supposed to ensure the well-being of the occupied population and assist in the maintenance of infrastructure, etc.

the israeli government is a massively whiney, greedy, illicit turd and it needs to be re-organized from the ground up--as does the american government.

the UN and brits essentially created israel, and neither entity can even stoop to support the behavior of the country's government as of late. it should say something that in the entire world community, only the US is standing by the israeli government right now.

to me, that says that people far more politically savvy than any of us believe that the israeli government is wrong and that the only entity that finds any merit in its present course of action is a paranoid, delusional bully like the US.

i hear that chabib, and i think as a larger picture that is accurate. but i do think hezbollah and other elements of the arab anger at the U.S occupation in Iraq simply does not want peace and is baiting Israel. Israel also did leave parts of Gaza not too long ago which was a major, major, concession.

HEzbollah and Hamas are extremists in essentially a broader holy war against the West and i think they are aligned with the insurgency in iraq war seeing it as a chance to help not only take down the U.S occupation, but stir it up with Israel as well. and their popularity is growing. that's very dangerous for Israel.

[Tokolosh]

I think the Likud party have a lot of negative influence on the israeli governments leading party Kadima. Netanyahu is a pretty dodgy character and will do anything to get back the power. There are many israelis that oppose him and other Knesset Members and would give back the land and money without hesitation. Look at Gaza.

When it comes to the other side, I ask myself where all that aid money went to that Arafat got from countries around the world. The weapon industry is where it landed up. Decades long, he got millions of dollars and his people are still living in shacks without clean water. Now that he's gone, his wife is living the good life and sponsoring Hamas and other factions, to make palestinians believe that they'll get healthcare, food.. etc.

I think there's corruption on both sides and they brainwash their people for their own interests.

[chabib]

arafat was definitely corrupt. that's why it's so critical that israel, as an occupier, uses the taxes that they collect from palestinians to meet their responsibilities of supporting palestinian infrastructure as opposed to destroying it. collective punishment does little to aid israel in diffusing aggression and potential aggression. israel has one of the most skilled secret police forces and some of the toughest commandos in the world. they could very easily take care of their problems by using those assets instead of exploiting massive displays of military might.

yes, hamas has factions that stir the pot of violence. i'd be an idiot to deny that.

as for withdrawl from the strip, in that same period, israel was building new settlements in the west bank and drawing up plans for new settlements, like maskiot, which are being built as i type this. this sort of behavior stirs that pot just as much as hamas does...

[Lurker]

[quote=chabib]lives.

america's decision to start a war with afghanistan because a terrorist organization has bases there has opened up a nasty can of worms. [quote]

America and Britain didn't go to war with Afghanistan just because there were terrorist bases there, but because the Taliban actively supported and hid Al-Qaeda

[alyasa]

The trouble is, most people who get involved in this in some way tend to get moralistic and judgemental and preachy. While that attitude would be fine and appropriate in Sunday School and catechism class, we're dealing with 3 major religions, all of whom claim to have the same origins, worship the same God and has mostly the same prophets.The level of paranoia is such that I'm willing to bet that some Islamic militants are stirring up violence and strife just because they think, Christianity and Judaism is ganging up on the 'new kid', Islam. Then again, this might actually have some truth in it, as Israel and its military are a direct result of American and British actions. A lot of the Palestinians feel that their side is misrepresented most of the time and that the Western media, which is one of the most powerful and influential groups of any kind in the modern world, are biased towards Israeli (and therefore, American) opinion. This makes any action taken by Palestine into a terrorist act, and any action taken by Israel into a counter-terrorist one. For all the postulating and theorizing the Western media has spewed on this subject over the decades, I still believe the surface has not even begun to be scratched, and that this serious, major conflict which should have been resolved ages ago has been painted as some kind of Counter-Strike deathmatch videogame and it will remain that way as long as there groups or indiviuals who will profit or benefit in some way from strife and specifically this particular strife. Not much can be done by mere mortals now, most activists who participate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict end up being run over by Israeli tanks or slaughtered by Palestinian militants.

[qprogeny79]

without having read the majority of the posts here, and with apologies if this has already been brought up, i'm with israel on this one.

the primary reason why hamas was elected is not economic; it is because they are most consistent in bringing about the palestinians' goal: the destruction of israel. ever since the foundation of israel in the late '40s, the palestinians, and the majority of the middle east for that matter, have made it their ultimate goal to get israel out of the middle east. if you remember, when israel pulled out of the gaza strip last year, masked palestinian gunmen poured into the streets chanting that jerusalem would be next. coincidence? i think not.

the current situation, as i understand it anyway, is that iran is providing assistance to hezbollah in lebanon, provoking an israeli counterattack and distracting attention from its nuclear program. this is in keeping with its two primary objectives: to get the bomb and to destroy israel. naturally, this only underscores the incredible need to rid the world of the iranian regime; not only is iran already the #1 sponsor of terrorism worldwide, but if it ever gets a nuke on its hands we can kiss our asses goodbye, as it will naturally target israel first and then get into the cute little business of selling the suckers to terrorists. all of c. rice's and the un's mealy-mouthed "iran is not living up to its international obligations and further isolating itself" whining notwithstanding, it is waaaay past time to completely annihilate the iranian regime; no gifts will ever deter zealots like ahmadinejad.

that said, while i'm sure there are some, even many, normal palestinians whose heads aren't fucked over by dreams of a mushroom cloud over tel aviv, we are talking about people who elected a woman who sent her son into a marketplace with a bomb on his back to represent them in parliament.

saying israel and the palestinians should live peacefully together is like saying the us and al-qaida should live peacefully together.

[chabib]

interesting discussion with chomsky about this on democracy now this morning:

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demn....ra&proto=rtsp

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by qprogeny79

the current situation, as i understand it anyway, is that iran is providing assistance to hezbollah in lebanon, provoking an israeli counterattack and distracting attention from its nuclear program. this is in keeping with its two primary objectives: to get the bomb and to destroy israel. naturally, this only underscores the incredible need to rid the world of the iranian regime; not only is iran already the #1 sponsor of terrorism worldwide, but if it ever gets a nuke on its hands we can kiss our asses goodbye, as it will naturally target israel first and then get into the cute little business of selling the suckers to terrorists. all of c. rice's and the un's mealy-mouthed "iran is not living up to its international obligations and further isolating itself" whining notwithstanding, it is waaaay past time to completely annihilate the iranian regime; no gifts will ever deter zealots like ahmadinejad.

I refuse to take sides, but let's not forget that Dimona's Negev Nuclear Research Center can be a reason for Iran and others arming themselves. Israel's nuclear capability is not to be underestimated and extremely worrying to neighbouring countries.
Even the US had their doubts as to what was going on in Dimona when it was first built.

[gmku]

I missed the news last night. But I thought I heard something about a cease-fire proposal. Any truth to that?

[gmku]

Crap, never mind, I just read where Israel rejected it.

[ricechex]

saw on CNN that Labanon asked Bush to press for a cease fire. but why hasn't he done this yet?

[gmku]

becuz he's our War President. George likes it when things get blowed up.

[Tokolosh]

Originally Posted by ricechex

saw on CNN that Labanon asked Bush to press for a cease fire. but why hasn't he done this yet?

Good question!

[Tokolosh]

Maybe he's to busy with Putin in Slovakia. Democracy and free press are on the agenda today. Yeah right!

[ricechex]

Bush rejected calls to make a plea for a ceasefire. " The president doesn't want to make military decisions for Israel". -Tony Snow

Tony also believes its past the point for that now..what the???
such fucking losers.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060714/D8IRVGT8I.html

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by Tokolosh

Taking sides is an easy way out and it won't resolve the conflict.
It's sad that the civilian population, who only want a good future in a peaceful environment, are caught up in the crossfire of war criminals on all sides.

No, I agree. Sorry. That's the last time I use sarcasm while discussing Israel.

Maybe...

[Cantankerous]

Originally Posted by chabib

interesting discussion with chomsky about this on democracy now this morning:

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demn....ra&proto=rtsp

ooh thanks

[Пятхъдесят Шест]

It seems as though we're overlooking the shit stirer nature of Iran and Syria in this matter.

Unless we've forgot what happened during the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon last year. Mass demonstrations in Beirut against the Syrian occupation of Lebanon showed that many Lebanese are tired of this bullshit repeating itself, and furious with Hezbollah leaders defending the Syrian governments involvement with Lebanese leaders.