[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Loveless is more coherent but Isn't Anything has much better songs. It is as simple as that.

It's not that simple.

Isn't Anything is a fine album. But Loveless is just so far beyond it that it's useless comparing the two.

[fluxequalsrad]

Isn't Anything sounds like a Placebo prototype. I love Isn't Anything, but Loveless is so thick and the assault never lets up. Isn't Anything is a little more wide open and the layering style doesn't work as well. Mind you ..still incredible.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

You're really working Loveless way up to much more than it is.

It is a great studio album- they spent a lot of time in the studio making things sound cool and making things sound pretty. If Loveless was recorded under the same circumstances as Isn't Anything, it wouldn't be as good of an album. You have to consider multiple aspects when grading albums. Production and mastering is one category, but a more important category to me is actual substance.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

It is a great studio album- they spent a lot of time in the studio making things sound cool and making things sound pretty. If Loveless was recorded under the same circumstances as Isn't Anything, it wouldn't be as good of an album.

It wouldn't be as good as it is now, you're right. But, you know. It wasn't. So no point in speculating about it.

You have to consider multiple aspects when grading albums.

All I have to consider is what the end product sounds like.

Production and mastering is one category, but a more important category to me is actual substance.

Production, mastering, engineering, arrangements -- all inherently affect the "substance" of the album.

[Sonic Youth 37]

Song for Song-Isn't Anything
As a whole album-Loveless

Isn't Anything works much better than Loveless on a song-by-song basis, but Loveless has the better structure and albumness.

[nomowish]

Originally Posted by PAULYBEE2656

kevin sheilds sounding emo...
there is a sentence i thought id never read.... repped! i disagree with you but repped for the quality of the sentence!

The thing is, I prefer the effortless, half-awake sexiness of Bilinda's style of singing. Kevin, though, who clearly isn't that great of a singer, tries too hard to express certain emotions as a singer on this album. Listen to BB's "Lose My Breath" and KS's "Cupid Come" back-to-back. I find him distracting.

[kingcoffee]

Loveless. End of question.

[pbradley]

Tremolo beats em both.


Just kidding. But they're a tie in my book. Loveless is an ambient masterpiece, Isn't Anything is a more "realistic" (if that makes sense) rock classic.

[PAULYBEE2656]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

..............
You have to consider multiple aspects when grading albums. Production and mastering is one category, but a more important category to me is actual substance.

no, the most important aspect of a record is the finished product and loveless is flawless.

let me say something tho, isnt anything is an awesome record. i cant believe the amount of dissing its getting but comparing the two is like comparing spinal taps flower people with sex farm. same band but totally different works. loveless is incomparible to the majority of music. again i say, its a generational thing.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

Production, mastering, engineering, arrangements -- all inherently affect the "substance" of the album.

Production, mastering, engineering, arrangements are all fluff.
Sometimes it is very satisfying to listen to very fluffy albums, but other times I want to listen to songs that are built on a good foundation.

It is always interesting to see what an artist can do with a studio album, and I love studio albums. It is really easy to get carried away in all the prettiness and dreaminess of a studio album. . . but to say they are miles beyond the simpler albums with the band just rocking out to me is just ridiculous. It is like two different styles of cuisine or two different flavors of ice cream. You know the analogy.

A "studio album" is like chocolate decadendence or some other incredibly over-indulgent ice-cream. Maybe chunky monkey.

But a simpler album with a band rocking out is cookie dough, or cookies and cream, or mint chocolate chip.

Sometimes I'm in the mood to be overindulgent, other times I want to go to old faithful. And by old faithful I mean rock and roll. And Isn't Anything is an album very firmly planted in Rock and Roll. They do the pretty stuff, but the songs still want to make you move.

[atsonicpark]

well-said.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Production, mastering, engineering, arrangements are all fluff.

Haha. Bullshit. They are integral. And Loveless is a perfect case in point. The album was written and created around it's production, mastering, engineering, and arrangments. They are what make the songs. And you can't come along after the fact and say "well, remove all of that, and i just want to hear the band bang out the guitars/drums/vocals". Uh, duh. The songs are built on it's gorgeous tones, samples and beautiful textures. Remove all of that, and you're changing the songs at a core level. You're not hearing what the artist intended. The studio is an instrument.

Sometimes it is very satisfying to listen to very fluffy albums, but other times I want to listen to songs that are built on a good foundation.

I don't even understand what that means. "Fluffy" albums? And what the hell is the foundation?

It is always interesting to see what an artist can do with a studio album, and I love studio albums. It is really easy to get carried away in all the prettiness and dreaminess of a studio album. . . but to say they are miles beyond the simpler albums with the band just rocking out to me is just ridiculous. It is like two different styles of cuisine or two different flavors of ice cream. You know the analogy.

I honestly don't know what you're on about. Even "simpler" albums require production, engineering, etc. Poor production can make energetic material sound flat. Raw, edgy guitar tones can end up sounding overtly processed and stale.

I never said rocking out was a bad thing. Good production doesn't necessarily mean "hifi" or "overproduced" or anything like that. 4 Track recordings can be great in certain instances, and in that case, they still have great production.

A "studio album" is like chocolate decadendence or some other incredibly over-indulgent ice-cream. Maybe chunky monkey.

But a simpler album with a band rocking out is cookie dough, or cookies and cream, or mint chocolate chip.

I hate analogies that compare music to food. I don't like ice cream.

Sometimes I'm in the mood to be overindulgent, other times I want to go to old faithful. And by old faithful I mean rock and roll. And Isn't Anything is an album very firmly planted in Rock and Roll. They do the pretty stuff, but the songs still want to make you move.

Um, well they're both firmly planted in rock and roll. And while I like Isn't Anything quite a bit, I just feel Loveless takes a lot of the ideas presented on that album to a whole new level.

I mean shit man. The twisting synth parts, the waves upon waves of harmonizing "oooohs", and some of the most awe-inspiring sounds to ever come out of a six-string. It's fucking perfect.

[atsonicpark]

i said it earlier, but i'll say it again.. loveless's drum sound is way too tinny and shitty.

You are way too controversial for music! Plumbing needs more useless opinions than Loveless.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Basically I don't really like to rate things, because if I make a top 10 of something, the stuff is all pretty interchangable. Instead of the ice cream, use this metaphor. You've got several children. Which one do you love the most? You might love them all equally or love them all in different ways. That is how I am with bands, albums, songs, etc.

Basically Allhandsonthebadone, to me saying that Loveless isn't comparable to Isn't Anything is like saying that you can't compare electric music to acoustic music because it is further evolved or something.

Loveless is a much prettier, dreamier, and more coherent album and it is pretty damn close to perfect in respects to that. But it does have its flaws. But for me I can be in an Isn't Anything mood or a Loveless mood. Loveless is an entirely different album than Isn't Anything. But to say Isn't Anything is shit in comparison is just really unfair.

I actually prefer some of the guitar tones on Isn't Anything. Like the intro/outro tone on Cupid Come, Sueisfine, and the intro/chorus on You Never Should. It is obvious on Isn't Anything that they hadn't perfected their methods quite yet. . . but there are cool concepts on the album. Like the drums on the chorus of Lose My Breath and on the whole song No More Sorry.

For me there is a certain beauty to imperfection though.

Oh BTW At Sonic Park, I actually really love the drum sounds on Loveless. Different strokes I guess.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

BTW, the EPs are awesome. I love Tremolo and Glider. I like how Moon Song almost sounds like a Martin Denny piece.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

i said it earlier, but i'll say it again.. loveless's drum sound is way too tinny and shitty.

The drums are fine. It's not the kind of album where drumming is much of an issue either way.

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Basically I don't really like to rate things, because if I make a top 10 of something, the stuff is all pretty interchangable. Instead of the ice cream, use this metaphor. You've got several children. Which one do you love the most? You might love them all equally or love them all in different ways. That is how I am with bands, albums, songs, etc.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm pretty much the same way. It's just where I think Isn't Anything is really good, I think Loveless is possibly the best pop album ever created. I don't expect you to agree with me or anything, but that's just where I'm coming from.

Basically Allhandsonthebadone, to me saying that Loveless isn't comparable to Isn't Anything is like saying that you can't compare electric music to acoustic music because it is further evolved or something.

Haha, ok. But I would never say something like that.

When I say it's not comparable, I just mean I like Loveless so much more in just about every way.

Anyways. Let's just agree to disagree eh?

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

Anyways. Let's just agree to disagree eh?

Yeah. . . this argument isn't exactly productive.

Best pop album ever? That really depends on your definition of pop.

For me it is the most beautifully dreamy album ever.

[sun city girl]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Loveless is the more ambitious but has far too many fillers. would've been an absolute masterpiece if it'd been released as a four track EP or something.

that's why tremolo is the masterpiece loveless never could be.

isn't anything is better.

[sun city girl]

loveless is the dark side of the moon for the shoegazers.