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Old 01.16.2008, 12:45 AM   #41
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I agree with Glice, atheism also has its idiots.
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:21 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !@#$%!
empirical science saved us.

i don't need to be saved by jesus, and i don't need to be saved by empirical science either... just another religon anyway...

here is the miracle of empirical science...

Observation: Every spring the Nile River floods, leaving behind nutrient-rich mud that makes agriculture possible. However, along with the muddy soil, large numbers of frogs appear that weren’t there before.
Conclusion: Obviously the muddy soil gave rise to the frogs.


Observation: Farmers stored grain in barns with thatched roofs. As a roof aged, it was not uncommon for it to start leaking. This could lead to spoiled or moldy grain, and of course there were lots of mice around.
Conclusion:
Obviously the mice came from the moldy grain.



 



...look at them... they're like freakin cult members...
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1rr0r dash
i don't need to be saved by jesus, and i don't need to be saved by empirical science either... just another religon anyway...

here is the miracle of empirical science...

Observation: Every spring the Nile River floods, leaving behind nutrient-rich mud that makes agriculture possible. However, along with the muddy soil, large numbers of frogs appear that weren’t there before.
Conclusion: Obviously the muddy soil gave rise to the frogs.


Observation: Farmers stored grain in barns with thatched roofs. As a roof aged, it was not uncommon for it to start leaking. This could lead to spoiled or moldy grain, and of course there were lots of mice around.
Conclusion:
Obviously the mice came from the moldy grain.



 



...look at them... they're like freakin cult members...

for fucks sakes man, you get a big red F- on the scientific method. that's EXACTLY the kind of shit explanation experimental science did away with, along with false notions like the cosmic ether, flogiston, "humors", phrenology, parthenogenetic humans, the static universe in which kant theorized the stars balanced out gravity, and other innumerable foolish ideas with no basis in reality.

please toss your derrida books in the trash heap where they belong and read francis bacon, galileo, newton, lavoisier. sure they seem primitive to our eyes but their legacy KICKS FUCKING ASS, they toppled the theocracy that kept humanity in shackles for milennia.

anybody but anybody can come up with some cockamamie causal relation between 2 contiguous phenomena-- that's the origin of associative magic. but contrary to fantastic explanations, science can cut through the bullshit & expose false hypotheses. that's it power.

science is fucking glorious, and it is that way because no truth of science i ever final-- only silly positivists and people who elevate science to religion and sf fanbois think that science actually replaces superstition-- it can eradicate it, yes, not assume its place.

anyway, contrary to stereotypes, there are plenty of hot scientists. my first girlfriend is now a biologist and she is/was a total babe, not only because of her she looked like botticelli's venus, but because she was smart and well read and that is so very sexy. also there was this lab in my school that actively recruited the best looking women in the university and you'd go there and be in awe... but i digress. it is also a well known fact that scientists are the only people who read poetry outside of MFA programs.

plenty of fucked up homely insano chicks in the "critical theory" camp though-- admit it. you've gone to school with them, so have i.

as for ghouls-- eat your gayatri spivak


 


EYESORE

oh yeah, and these fools arent exactly male models either
http://www.freeuniversityla.org/D&G.gif

but i digress. the point is-- you got F- in science man

---

ha ha now you were probably joking, but eh!
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Old 01.16.2008, 08:50 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1rr0r dash
 



...look at them... they're like freakin cult members...

at least they look happy.
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:03 PM   #45
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Most of the best thinkers (including Socrates, Jesus, Kierkegaard, Darwin and Einstein - all of which were theists) throughout history have had major justifiable issues with organized religion, I'll give you guys that, but most of the posts in this thread (save those by racehorse and Glice) come off as the weary bleating of so many malnourished sheep.

It's rather tragicomical, because you guys think you're so right. Oh well, to quote Mark Arm, "confusion reigns, confusion is king."
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:22 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swa(y)
there is absolutely ZERO proof that Jesus ever even existed. there are plenty of great thinkers/historians from that era that never even mention him.


The Bible has been translated many times, but it is a historic document. And it's your prerogative to discount the Bible as biased if you choose, since there are many instances where it is historically not entirely accurate.

There is, however, additional historical proof. Quotes follow...

Still, to put to rest the notion that there is no historic and scientific proof of Jesus outside the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Flavius Josephus and to Roman historian Carius Cornelius Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

Cornelius Tacitus
Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata
Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius
Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger
Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon
Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion
Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ.



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Old 01.16.2008, 01:33 PM   #47
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Nice try at a sidetrack, swa(y).

Funny how atheists think they know more than Socrates, Jesus, Kierkegaard, Darwin or Einstein. I mean that's a laugh riot. In short, atheists are pretentious, profoundly disagreeable and generally miserable sorts.

Now, I know what you are thinking. You're thinking that aren't preachers pretentious? Yes, they are. Anyone that claims to have absolute knowledge of the afterlife, for instance, is pretentious.

Hmm, that must be one of the major reasons why Socrates, Jesus, Kierkegaard, Darwin and Einstein all believed in God but had issues with organized religion.

Let's explore some questions and answers:

Is the I-Ching an actual oracle?
No, it is a book of wisdom compiled over centuries by Taoist and Confucian thinkers. It is a book of self-discovery. It surpasses status as merely a great work of compiled literature to have the status of a great book of wisdom.

Is the Bible flawless?
No, it is a book of wisdom that also serves as a historical document of the Hebrew people. It has been translated and retranslated many, many times. It surpasses status as merely a great work of compiled literature to have the status of a great book of wisdom. As a side note, there are key differences between Old and New Testament religious philosophy.

Is evolution true?
Absolutely, it provides the underpinnings for every scientific discipline from Anthropology to Zoology. It is no theory and provides a scientific basis in which to describe the origins and evolution of life on this planet.

Is relativity true?
Absolutely, it accurately predicts the physical interactions of matter throughout the entire universe. It is no theory. In 2003, it was proven in an experiment partially conducted right here in Charlottesville that the speed of light and the speed of gravity are exactly the same.
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:40 PM   #48
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science is the search for what works.

religion is th search for validation.

fuck religions. fuck their lies, their horrors, their societal control, fuck the sheep too, and especially FUCK THE SHEPHERDS
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:44 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
science is the search for what works.

religion is th search for validation.

fuck religions. fuck their lies, their horrors, their societal control, fuck the sheep too, and especially FUCK THE SHEPHERDS

 
??
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Old 01.16.2008, 01:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swa(y)
not entirely accurate is enough for me...cause that leaves the question as to what is actually accurate.

i suppose its very possibly that 1000 years from now people will question wether or not rocky was actually a boxer...which would be true...he was...but wether or not he was a real boxer or a fictitional character is a whole other story. there will be documents, possibly, that support the fact that he may have very well existed. im imaginine these documents will be interpreted many different ways. and if the film is around, maybe it will just be interpreted as a story,, an account of the actual life of the boxer.

i know this sounds stupid...but it does make sense. at least to me.

Rocky Marciano was real, Rocky Balboa is a composite character. I doubt any intelligent person will have any problem distinguishing between the two at any point in our future.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atari 2600
Rocky Marciano was real, Rocky Balboa is a composite character. I doubt any intelligent person will have any problem distinguishing between the two at any point in our future.

yeah sure. think about king arthur, or sherlock holmes even. people go around believing they were every bit as real as the President, if he is "real" at all.
jesus is not a name. it is a title, meaning saviour.
the man in the bible they CALL Jesus is named Emmanuel.
Emmanuel means "son of god"

it is all bullshit.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:05 PM   #52
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:15 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
yeah sure. think about king arthur, or sherlock holmes even. people go around believing they were every bit as real as the President, if he is "real" at all.
jesus is not a name. it is a title, meaning saviour.
the man in the bible they CALL Jesus is named Emmanuel.
Emmanuel means "son of god"

it is all bullshit.

I can understand doubts. And Jesus certainly did, not only in his some of his reported dying words, but his whole doctrine demonstrates how much he empathizes with the mind of the doubter.

Moreover, I'm of the Socratic opinion that anyone who in truth actually believes in God must doubt God first, because philosophy begins with doubt.

At any rate, one more time.

Cornelius Tacitus
Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata
Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius
Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny the Younger
Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Thallus and Phlegon
Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Mara Bar-Serapion
Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:24 PM   #54
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CHRIST is also a Title, not a name , nor a surname.

Jesus Christ is an honorrific.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:29 PM   #55
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Yeah, but that doesn't automatically mean he never existed. I understood your argument the first time, Rob. It's just that it's not much of an argument. It's more like a personal theory you employ when you feel the need arises.

Many, many historical persons who are chronicled in ancient histories are known by several names and/or titles. Aside from a myriad of other cultural factors, it is a phenomenon that naturally arises during translations from one language to another.

again,
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
I can understand doubts. And Jesus certainly did, not only in his some of his reported dying words, but his whole doctrine demonstrates how much he empathizes with the mind of the doubter.

Moreover, I'm of the Socratic opinion that anyone who in truth actually believes in God must doubt God first, because philosophy begins with doubt.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:39 PM   #56
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To throw away all theological concerns out of an adolescent grudge against/fear of organization religion is about as intelligent as throwing out all secular philosophy out of an adolescent grudge against/fear of "Godless" Humanism.

Unfortunately I've had friends one both sides of the ignorance coin in this aspect.


Conclusion: In the game of us versus them, I will always think for myself first.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:39 PM   #57
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I never claimed that a historical person named Emmanuel, a rabbi from 2000 years ago, did not exist.

I stated that claims of his DIVINITY have been created, the bible has been re-written, and whole segments of Emmanuel's life have been forged, to appear in line with the supposed prophecies in the old testament about a Messiah.

the rocky marciano.rocky balboa thing is erroneous.

think about it more like mahtatma Ghandi, a great human if there ever was one, but imagine 3oo years from now, a group of people following the Mahatma's teachings, would almost certainly have to create many details about Ghandi's life to fit their worship of him. slowly over time, humans begin to worship the MAN instead of the man's IDEALS.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:42 PM   #58
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It would be pretentious of me to claim otherwise myself. That's why I never have. I can't substatiate everything in the Bible, and never have claimed that I did. I suppose we can thank swa(y) for his monkeywrench that inhibited a clear communication of ideas.

So again, just to be clear to anyone reading:

The I-Ching or Book of Changes is a book of wisdom compiled over centuries by Taoist and Confucian thinkers. It is a book of self-discovery. It surpasses status as merely a great work of compiled literature to have the status of a great book of wisdom.

The Bible is not flawless, it is a book of wisdom that also serves as a historical document of the Hebrew people. It has been translated and retranslated many, many times. It surpasses status as merely a great work of compiled literature to have the status of a great book of wisdom. As a side note, there are key differences between Old and New Testament religious philosophy.

Evolution is absolutely true; it provides the underpinnings for every scientific discipline from Anthropology to Zoology. It is no theory and provides a scientific basis in which to describe the origins and evolution of life on this planet.

Relativity is absolutely true; it accurately predicts the physical interactions of matter throughout the entire universe. It is no theory. In 2003, it was proven in an experiment partially conducted right here in Charlottesville that the speed of light and the speed of gravity are exactly the same.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:42 PM   #59
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and theological concerns can very wel be "thrown out" if one does not believe ina soul or a creator. in this case theological arguments are purely MOOT!

Imagine trying to argue any theology with a being from a planet orbiting the star betelgeuse. it would be ridiculous and pointless and futile. Now, try arguing scientific facts, such as the laws of gravitation, optics, harmonics, entropy, etc etc. if a common language could be found that would be a fruitful and engaging discourse.
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Old 01.16.2008, 02:45 PM   #60
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The common language is Einstein's relativity. It is the truest description of ourselves and our universe that humans have ever recorded.

Relativity has been around more than a century now and, in general, people still have no clue as to the enormous ramifications of this truth.

It's a tragedy, but it's no surprise.

Jesus espoused a revolution in consciousness over two thousand years ago that still hasn't taken place.

Rob, you're funny with your, quite frankly, stereotypical "rage against the machine." As a revolutionary thinker, you don't hold even the slightest candle to Jesus. It's absolutely silly to think you are more "extreme" or "correct" than Jesus. And it shows a great deal of willful ignorance about who Jesus was and what he teaches on your part.
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