east jerusalem these days- for slavo and others

fugazifan · 12.25.2009, 03:44 AM

i dont want to hijack the other thread

basically after 48 when iosrael was formed all of the arabs in what was then israel got citizenship. after the 67 occupation, the arabs that live in the ocupied territories only got permanent resident status. this differs from the jewish settlers that live in the occupied territories that have full israeli rights if not more than that. the settlements are all build on arab land 9as is most of legal isreal but that is a different story). the arabs are having their land taken away by new settlements and outposts. for if an israeli decides to put up a tent on palestinian farmland and call it a settlement, although it is illegal, he can get the army to protect him and thus the palestinian will not be able to go onto his land, and can risk being arrested if he gets too close. i was at a few activities where we were invited by palestinians onto their land, we would go near the outposts that were on a plaestinianss private property and try to build out own tents there and the army would immediatly tear it down, use violence against us, claiming that it was a closed military zone and then use stun grenades (they make a lot on noise and smoke). that is while the settlers are still in their tent on stolen land...

for the past two months almost there have been weekly protests in the east jerusaelm arab neighborhood of sheikh jarrah. the story is that the palestinians there were kicked out of west jerusalem in 48 and their houses and propert stolen. they moved to east jerusaelm and legally bought houses from the jordanians who then ruled the area. in the last year or so there have surrfaced documents that say that some jews owned some of the land in SJ from the time of the ottoman empire. the owners have transfered ownership to right wing settler organizations who have been getting aprroval from the courts to kick the palestinians onto the streets and "reclaim" the jewish land.
but the problem is first of all that these people now own the land, and bought it legally (the palestinians)
second of all, if israel is letting jews get back property that was theirs before 48(even though it didnt belong to the actual settlers moving in ) why cant the arabs get their homes back, which the courts have denied.
in addition this move is a government funded ethnic cleansing of east jerusalem so that there will be enough settlements in order to make it iompossible for east jerusalem to be the palestinian capital.

so every week a bunch of jewish activists, have been marching to east jerusalem and protesting, the first week we started as 20 people, last week which was the 6th week, we were 300. so that is good.

but the police and army are trying to stop us any way they can. over the last two weeks they have resorted to violence and mass arrests in order to stop our legal peacful protests.
two weeks they waited for any form of provocation and when it happened they jumped us and started dragging random people into the police cars. they peppered sprayed one activist straight in the eyes while he was just talking to them. they even brought in masked mistarvim, who are masked police officers that look like arabs that can be more violent towards us, and they can even attack the police to make it look liek leftists or arabs did it so that then the police can hit us even harder.
last week the police didnt give us a permit for our democratic right- to protest. so in order to be under to be under 50 people which would constitute an illegal protest we split into 5 groups for our march. the police arrested nine people for simply walking down the street, and claimed it was an "attempt to demonstrate." they arrested all of our drummers who drum every week, for that reason, simply walking down the street adn drumming.
then once we got to the demonstration area they arrested another 20 people for absolutely nothing, except for protesting.

this is just a tiny bit of what goes on to the arab population here- even the palestinian citizens have fewer rights than us jews do.

its fucked up. and we are the minority.
herre are some videos ffrom the last few weeks in east jerusalem
here are the drummers being arrested for no reason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfXDzyzkUVA
here is from last week as well. it starts by seeing protesters trying to find a way to get to the neighborhood since the police blocked all entrances.
then them arrsting people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhB8PwBdrvQ
when they do the mass arrests they keep the protesters locked in the settlers yard until their arresting vans arrive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhB8PwBdrvQ
here is another one of them arresting people randomly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIsvt4W4nGU
police pepperspraying an activist for not doing anytrhing (at 29 seconds- and at 1:30 you can see his face covered with pepper spray)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ICzX...eature=related

some articles on what happened there
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135709.html
i skimmed this article and she says everything that i did, but a bit better
http://palestinechronicle.com/view_a...s.php?id=15624

thats it for now, i have to leave in a bit for this weeks protest

_slavo_ · 12.25.2009, 06:18 AM

oh, that's horrible man, thanks for the insight and good luck with your effort !!!
I need to check all those links to get a broader view.

To get a better understanding, my question is, what is the main reason for Israeli occupational forces to make Palestinians families leave their homes in West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem? The Jewish/Muslim antagonism or the intention to maintain a Jewish-only nation without any minorities or is there a different reason for that?

chicka · 12.25.2009, 11:49 AM

what a shame Can anyone guess who the usa is backing?

Keeping It Simple · 12.25.2009, 11:53 AM

Unfortunately for fugazifan, he comes across as a pitiful whiner.

hevusa · 12.25.2009, 12:05 PM

I am so sick of the bullshit that is Israel. If it wasn't for imperialism and foreign money Israel would not even exist. Is there any greater source of negative energy in the world than Jerusalem? This shit is going to lead us down a path to WWIII.

And everyone in the region is fighting just to defend their version of God. Pathetic. Move away from Israel and have a peaceful life.

fugazifan · 12.25.2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple

Unfortunately for fugazifan, he comes across as a pitiful whiner.

how about you go fuck yourself?
how am i a pitiful whiner? because i spot civil rights violations and do something about it?

Derek · 12.25.2009, 01:15 PM

ignore that guy

SuchFriendsAreDangerous · 12.26.2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fugazifan

its fucked up. and we are the minority.

thats precisely been the problem for 60 years

unfortunately you, like me, live in a country that was founded on manifest destiny, and basing politics on mythology can have frightening repurcusions. Keep it real, every little bit counts. Keep your fist raised.

"As we are confident in the victory of good over evil." Haile Selassie I

Torn Curtain · 12.27.2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple

Unfortunately for fugazifan, he comes across as a pitiful whiner.

One more post that shows that you are unable to elaborate and provide valid arguments

Keeping It Simple · 12.27.2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fugazifan

how about you go fuck yourself?
how am i a pitiful whiner? because i spot civil rights violations and do something about it?

You do moan a helluva lot about "civil rights violations"on this board and on the street. Has anyone ever told you to "stop moaning"?

Tokolosh · 12.27.2009, 07:39 AM

Fugazifan, I saw that photo of you protesting next to a soldier in the other thread
and I must say that I really admire what you are doing. Seriously, you've got balls.

People like you show the rest of the world that not all Israelis hate Palestinians
and vise versa, like the media so often portrays.
I'm certain that ordinary civilians like you and I would just rather
end the conflict and live side by side in peace.

Keep up the good work.

!@#$%! · 12.27.2009, 05:47 PM

dude, best wishes in what you're doing

the progressive takeover of east jerusalem is bullshit and it helps nobody-- it only fuels the hate-- the municipality of jerusalem has been expanding its borders under any excuse-- i'm not an israel hater, but this is fucking wrong and you're doing a good thing.

keep up the good work, and don't let anybody tell you that you don't have a right to do what you're doing. keeping your country from losing its conscience is a good thing.

DeadDiscoDildo · 12.27.2009, 05:50 PM

Yeah, this thread wins in my book.

akprodr · 12.27.2009, 05:59 PM

I used to be an supporter of Israel but it seems like the Palestinians were trying to make nice and Israel gave 'em a big FU.

I mean, still, you don't want to cross them Israelis but a political truce does not seem likely. I don't want to think about what happens when they bomb Iran (which now seems to have tacit approval from the rest of the world).

Hopefully enough people will be able to drive policy a new way. Like the bumper sticker, If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

Glice · 12.27.2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hevusa

I am so sick of the bullshit that is Israel. If it wasn't for imperialism and foreign money Israel would not even exist. Is there any greater source of negative energy in the world than Jerusalem? This shit is going to lead us down a path to WWIII.

And everyone in the region is fighting just to defend their version of God. Pathetic. Move away from Israel and have a peaceful life.

I think Herr fan has made it quite clear that the situation is more complex than being merely religious; one of the problems with talking about Israel is always that the name 'Israel' is often synonymous with Judaism, and Israel is the only Jewish state extant. Regardless of that, what we're talking about is state politics. While I have a degree of sympathy with some Israeli foreign policy towards the Palestinian territories, there's no way I could say they're entirely in the right. Essentially, in my drunken way, I just want to make it entirely clear that the actions of Israel the state are by no means the actions of Israel the people.

I'll return to this sober.

Glice · 12.27.2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akprodr

I used to be an supporter of Israel but it seems like the Palestinians were trying to make nice and Israel gave 'em a big FU.

I mean, still, you don't want to cross them Israelis but a political truce does not seem likely. I don't want to think about what happens when they bomb Iran (which now seems to have tacit approval from the rest of the world).

Hopefully enough people will be able to drive policy a new way. Like the bumper sticker, If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

Palestine is often portrayed as the unsuspecting victim. This is largely not correct. This in no way exonerates Israel's action, but let's not forget that we're talking about Hamas here, not Palestinians mothers for peace.

akprodr · 12.27.2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice

but let's not forget that we're talking about Hamas here,

True, I was thinking of whoever came before them leaderatoricly speaking

Glice · 12.28.2009, 04:36 AM

The fedayeen were largely hung out to dry by their muslim neighbours. I'm no expert on the politics of the area, so I always feel like I'm on iffy territory, but I generally perceive the militancy of Hamas as a current that's been part of 'Palestinian' politics for the last 50 years, not something that's arisen suddenly.

akprodr · 12.28.2009, 07:29 AM

I was thinking of Arafat. Yes, for most of his career he was pretty militant but towards the end, he seemed to be for a diplomatic solution. Seems like his ideas died with him.

If Northern Ireland could figure out its 'Troubles', seems like Israel/Palestine could too.

chrome noise tape · 12.28.2009, 07:34 AM

what do you think of this?:

EU wants Israel and Palestine to share Jerusalem as capital

Jerusalem should serve as the capital of both Israel and a future Palestinian state, according to the foreign ministers of the EU.

The diplomats, who had met for two days of talks in Brussels, did not specify the means by which this would be accomplished, but they did indicate their desire to see Israelis and Palestinians reach a consensus at the negotiating table.

An earlier proposal forwarded by the Swedish EU presidency, recommending the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, was dropped from the statement after Israel labeled the idea "extreme."

Some members of the 27-nation bloc, including Germany, Italy and the Czech Republic, were wary of imposing a settlement on Palestine and Israel.

Negotiating a new nation

"We could not decide how a future Palestinian state would look before negotiations had ended," German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle said, adding that he had argued strongly to have the original wording dropped from the statement.

"That reflects the nature of Germany's special relationship with Israel," he said.

"To decide here in Brussels what the future status of Jerusalem should be would be very frustrating for the negotiators," said Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini.

However, the collected foreign ministers did adopt a text urging that Jerusalem should serve as "the future capital of the two states."

The statement also reiterated that the EU does not recognize Israel's previous annexation of East Jerusalem and other territories.

"The EU will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders, including those with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties," a joint statement of EU ministers read.

During the 1967 Six-Day war, Israel captured the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, nad later annexed East Jerusalem and nearby suburbs.

Ignoring the facts?

The Palestinians welcomed the EU statement, with Nimr Hamad, a senior advisor to president Mahmud Abbas, calling it a "positive step."

Israel, despite welcoming the removal of the Swedish proposal, still responded unfavorably to the initiative from Brussels.

The statement "ignores the principle obstacle to achieving a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians: the Palestinians' refusal to return to the negotiating table," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor.

The EU "chose to adopt a text, which even if it contains nothing new, contributes nothing" to the goal of reviving peace negotiations, he said in a Hebrew press release.

The EU statement was also not warmly received in some quarters in the US.

EU members should join "responsible nations" in opposing any plans to recognise Arab east Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state, said Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the top Republican on th House of Representatives foreign affairs committee.

Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center commented, "Once again the EU is rushing with a laundry list of what's expected from Israel, but when will the European Union finally demand action from the Palestinians?"

12.25.2009, 03:44 AM	#1
fugazifan invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,816	i dont want to hijack the other thread basically after 48 when iosrael was formed all of the arabs in what was then israel got citizenship. after the 67 occupation, the arabs that live in the ocupied territories only got permanent resident status. this differs from the jewish settlers that live in the occupied territories that have full israeli rights if not more than that. the settlements are all build on arab land 9as is most of legal isreal but that is a different story). the arabs are having their land taken away by new settlements and outposts. for if an israeli decides to put up a tent on palestinian farmland and call it a settlement, although it is illegal, he can get the army to protect him and thus the palestinian will not be able to go onto his land, and can risk being arrested if he gets too close. i was at a few activities where we were invited by palestinians onto their land, we would go near the outposts that were on a plaestinianss private property and try to build out own tents there and the army would immediatly tear it down, use violence against us, claiming that it was a closed military zone and then use stun grenades (they make a lot on noise and smoke). that is while the settlers are still in their tent on stolen land... for the past two months almost there have been weekly protests in the east jerusaelm arab neighborhood of sheikh jarrah. the story is that the palestinians there were kicked out of west jerusalem in 48 and their houses and propert stolen. they moved to east jerusaelm and legally bought houses from the jordanians who then ruled the area. in the last year or so there have surrfaced documents that say that some jews owned some of the land in SJ from the time of the ottoman empire. the owners have transfered ownership to right wing settler organizations who have been getting aprroval from the courts to kick the palestinians onto the streets and "reclaim" the jewish land. but the problem is first of all that these people now own the land, and bought it legally (the palestinians) second of all, if israel is letting jews get back property that was theirs before 48(even though it didnt belong to the actual settlers moving in ) why cant the arabs get their homes back, which the courts have denied. in addition this move is a government funded ethnic cleansing of east jerusalem so that there will be enough settlements in order to make it iompossible for east jerusalem to be the palestinian capital. so every week a bunch of jewish activists, have been marching to east jerusalem and protesting, the first week we started as 20 people, last week which was the 6th week, we were 300. so that is good. but the police and army are trying to stop us any way they can. over the last two weeks they have resorted to violence and mass arrests in order to stop our legal peacful protests. two weeks they waited for any form of provocation and when it happened they jumped us and started dragging random people into the police cars. they peppered sprayed one activist straight in the eyes while he was just talking to them. they even brought in masked mistarvim, who are masked police officers that look like arabs that can be more violent towards us, and they can even attack the police to make it look liek leftists or arabs did it so that then the police can hit us even harder. last week the police didnt give us a permit for our democratic right- to protest. so in order to be under to be under 50 people which would constitute an illegal protest we split into 5 groups for our march. the police arrested nine people for simply walking down the street, and claimed it was an "attempt to demonstrate." they arrested all of our drummers who drum every week, for that reason, simply walking down the street adn drumming. then once we got to the demonstration area they arrested another 20 people for absolutely nothing, except for protesting. this is just a tiny bit of what goes on to the arab population here- even the palestinian citizens have fewer rights than us jews do. its fucked up. and we are the minority. herre are some videos ffrom the last few weeks in east jerusalem here are the drummers being arrested for no reason http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfXDzyzkUVA here is from last week as well. it starts by seeing protesters trying to find a way to get to the neighborhood since the police blocked all entrances. then them arrsting people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhB8PwBdrvQ when they do the mass arrests they keep the protesters locked in the settlers yard until their arresting vans arrive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhB8PwBdrvQ here is another one of them arresting people randomly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIsvt4W4nGU police pepperspraying an activist for not doing anytrhing (at 29 seconds- and at 1:30 you can see his face covered with pepper spray) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ICzX...eature=related some articles on what happened there http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135709.html i skimmed this article and she says everything that i did, but a bit better http://palestinechronicle.com/view_a...s.php?id=15624 thats it for now, i have to leave in a bit for this weeks protest __________________ If there's been a way to build it, There'll be a way to destroy it, Things are not that out of control www.myspace.com/dellilahtheband www.myspace.com/lecirquedesvampiresmusic
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12.25.2009, 06:18 AM	#2
_slavo_ invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ðîññèÿ Posts: 10,886	oh, that's horrible man, thanks for the insight and good luck with your effort !!! I need to check all those links to get a broader view. To get a better understanding, my question is, what is the main reason for Israeli occupational forces to make Palestinians families leave their homes in West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem? The Jewish/Muslim antagonism or the intention to maintain a Jewish-only nation without any minorities or is there a different reason for that? __________________ you're the boy that can enjoy invisibility
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12.25.2009, 11:49 AM	#3
chicka expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: wormtown MA Posts: 1,549	what a shame Can anyone guess who the usa is backing? __________________ some men just want to watch the world burn
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12.25.2009, 11:53 AM	#4
Keeping It Simple invito al cielo Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,721	Unfortunately for fugazifan, he comes across as a pitiful whiner.
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12.25.2009, 12:05 PM	#5
hevusa expwy. to yr skull Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: rain hell Posts: 1,535	I am so sick of the bullshit that is Israel. If it wasn't for imperialism and foreign money Israel would not even exist. Is there any greater source of negative energy in the world than Jerusalem? This shit is going to lead us down a path to WWIII. And everyone in the region is fighting just to defend their version of God. Pathetic. Move away from Israel and have a peaceful life.
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12.25.2009, 01:15 PM	#7
Derek invito al cielo Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 8,095	ignore that guy
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12.27.2009, 07:39 AM	#11
Tokolosh invito al cielo Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Plaza de Toros Posts: 6,731	Fugazifan, I saw that photo of you protesting next to a soldier in the other thread and I must say that I really admire what you are doing. Seriously, you've got balls. People like you show the rest of the world that not all Israelis hate Palestinians and vise versa, like the media so often portrays. I'm certain that ordinary civilians like you and I would just rather end the conflict and live side by side in peace. Keep up the good work. __________________ Anything you can /imagine is real
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12.27.2009, 05:47 PM	#12
!@#$%! invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: mars attacks Posts: 42,476	dude, best wishes in what you're doing the progressive takeover of east jerusalem is bullshit and it helps nobody-- it only fuels the hate-- the municipality of jerusalem has been expanding its borders under any excuse-- i'm not an israel hater, but this is fucking wrong and you're doing a good thing. keep up the good work, and don't let anybody tell you that you don't have a right to do what you're doing. keeping your country from losing its conscience is a good thing.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|

12.27.2009, 05:50 PM	#13
DeadDiscoDildo invito al cielo Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,805	Yeah, this thread wins in my book.
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12.27.2009, 05:59 PM	#14
akprodr the end of the ugly Join Date: May 2006 Location: Mt Clair Posts: 1,129	I used to be an supporter of Israel but it seems like the Palestinians were trying to make nice and Israel gave 'em a big FU. I mean, still, you don't want to cross them Israelis but a political truce does not seem likely. I don't want to think about what happens when they bomb Iran (which now seems to have tacit approval from the rest of the world). Hopefully enough people will be able to drive policy a new way. Like the bumper sticker, If the people lead, the leaders will follow. __________________ Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
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12.28.2009, 07:29 AM	#19
akprodr the end of the ugly Join Date: May 2006 Location: Mt Clair Posts: 1,129	I was thinking of Arafat. Yes, for most of his career he was pretty militant but towards the end, he seemed to be for a diplomatic solution. Seems like his ideas died with him. If Northern Ireland could figure out its 'Troubles', seems like Israel/Palestine could too. __________________ Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
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12.28.2009, 07:34 AM	#20
chrome noise tape the end of the ugly Join Date: May 2009 Location: Making The Nature Scene Posts: 935	what do you think of this?: EU wants Israel and Palestine to share Jerusalem as capital Jerusalem should serve as the capital of both Israel and a future Palestinian state, according to the foreign ministers of the EU. The diplomats, who had met for two days of talks in Brussels, did not specify the means by which this would be accomplished, but they did indicate their desire to see Israelis and Palestinians reach a consensus at the negotiating table. An earlier proposal forwarded by the Swedish EU presidency, recommending the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, was dropped from the statement after Israel labeled the idea "extreme." Some members of the 27-nation bloc, including Germany, Italy and the Czech Republic, were wary of imposing a settlement on Palestine and Israel. Negotiating a new nation "We could not decide how a future Palestinian state would look before negotiations had ended," German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle said, adding that he had argued strongly to have the original wording dropped from the statement. "That reflects the nature of Germany's special relationship with Israel," he said. "To decide here in Brussels what the future status of Jerusalem should be would be very frustrating for the negotiators," said Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini. However, the collected foreign ministers did adopt a text urging that Jerusalem should serve as "the future capital of the two states." The statement also reiterated that the EU does not recognize Israel's previous annexation of East Jerusalem and other territories. "The EU will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders, including those with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties," a joint statement of EU ministers read. During the 1967 Six-Day war, Israel captured the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, nad later annexed East Jerusalem and nearby suburbs. Ignoring the facts? The Palestinians welcomed the EU statement, with Nimr Hamad, a senior advisor to president Mahmud Abbas, calling it a "positive step." Israel, despite welcoming the removal of the Swedish proposal, still responded unfavorably to the initiative from Brussels. The statement "ignores the principle obstacle to achieving a settlement between Israel and the Palestinians: the Palestinians' refusal to return to the negotiating table," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor. The EU "chose to adopt a text, which even if it contains nothing new, contributes nothing" to the goal of reviving peace negotiations, he said in a Hebrew press release. The EU statement was also not warmly received in some quarters in the US. EU members should join "responsible nations" in opposing any plans to recognise Arab east Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state, said Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the top Republican on th House of Representatives foreign affairs committee. Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center commented, "Once again the EU is rushing with a laundry list of what's expected from Israel, but when will the European Union finally demand action from the Palestinians?"
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