[alyasa]

And what about those people who have tried and failed? Time and again? Do they too deserve the scorn and ridicule of being a whiner? I guess it's like the Batman movie...
"Do you know why we fall, Bruce?"
"Why do we fall, dad?"
"So we can learn to pick ourselves up again"

[Magublafix]

in former times i had such thoughts very often...

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by alyasa

And what about those people who have tried and failed? Time and again? Do they too deserve the scorn and ridicule of being a whiner? I guess it's like the Batman movie...
"Do you know why we fall, Bruce?"
"Why do we fall, dad?"
"So we can learn to pick ourselves up again"

No they don't because they're actually trying to do something.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by alyasa

And what about those people who have tried and failed? Time and again? Do they too deserve the scorn and ridicule of being a whiner? I guess it's like the Batman movie...
"Do you know why we fall, Bruce?"
"Why do we fall, dad?"
"So we can learn to pick ourselves up again"

Yes, they deserve scorn, because they are obviously inadequate. Nothing worse than being inferior to other crips.

[alyasa]

In reference to h8kurdt:
But at what cost? Where do you draw the line and say, that's it? You know if you try to squeeze water out of a stone, you'll only end up wasting your time... It's like a wise man once said to me; you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink...
There are times in a man's life when he has to face up to reality and move on. There are times when i was faced with a decision and it seemed that the best course of action was not to carry on. Did you know that Einstein became opposed to quantum mechanics and was opposed to it until the day he died and that he was regarded as too conservative by the general scientific community because of this? Even Einstein had to know when to stop... What about us? This may sound a bit screwed up, but I sincerely think we have to know when to back down... Or maybe most of us already do... BTW, Hi, Bessie...

[truncated]

Going to absurd efforts for a sense of personal accomplishment is really a crutch for one's own mental insecurities. Needing a stock of fruitless triumphs to give you a sense of purpose is far more cowardly than reaching acceptance.

[h8kurdt]

Bloody hell. Just write a section about this only for it to deleate. Bugger.

To sum up.

If the majority of bands quit after being rejected a few times the bands we love wouldn't exist.

Water freom a stone- Theirs realistic success and their's 'not even possible' sucess'

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by truncated

Going to absurd efforts for a sense of personal accomplishment is really a crutch for one's own mental insecurities. Needing a stock of fruitless triumphs to give you a sense of purpose is far more cowardly than reaching acceptance.

Not really, if anything it shows they have the confidence to do something against the odds rather than be a sheep and follow everyone's views.

[alyasa]

Wouldn't want to end up lonely, destitute and shelterless somewhere in the cold city... Reminds me of New Hampshire:
"The New Hampshire boys
Steve and Joe
They're gonna lead on
They're doin' it for life"
See dreams are a funny thing, they can break you and at the same time, they can be the only source of warmth and comfort in a cold world. truncated's right; only the really insecure would pursue a dead end, and keep banging their heads on the wall to find that it's their heads that are thinning, not the walls. But then again, Jim Carrey was a factory worker earning minimum wage, staring out the window and dreaming about Hollywood. Brad Pitt was a costumed chicken before he became A-List hollywood gold, Nirvana were earning peanuts before they became a revolution. But these are all exceptions to the rule. The Melvins are still pretty much obscure... The Fall, for all their admirers, aren't really what you'd call successful... But they keep doing it.. Why? Why do they persist? Even Sonic Youth i think are disproportionately successful in relation to what they have accomplished and influenced musically. Thing is, I believe in passion. And I hope I die before I stop believing in it...

[truncated]

I'm not talking about perseverance of a tangible goal in the face of opposition.

Is it in "To Kill A Mockingbird" where the ornery old bitch who, in her final stretches before death, kicks her morphine habit, and everyone lauds her strength of character?

Where were her balls earlier, when quitting it would've mattered? Oh right, it's about personal, inward satisfaction.

At the risk of making a blanket statement that I will later find exceptions to, the idea of accomplishing something useless for your own sense of well-being is really a decorated crutch for the insecurities of having no personal substance.

[truncated]

Passion and compensation are two very different things.

[h8kurdt]

Maybe it's because these people don't want to live a 9-5 job, come home watch TV, spend some time with the kids, sleep and do the same thing again until Saturday they're the doers not the dreamers.

Alyssa gave examples of bands that aren't exactly big successes. They can live off what they can't they so surely that's success in it's own right?

[alyasa]

But would a tangible goal still remain so after say, 10 years? Would it be any less a goal? Where do we draw the line and say this is it, I'm quitting.... Of course when it becomes a matter of self-harm and it gets in the way of self-preservation, of course... But what if the opposition is relentless? What if you knew something was impossible, but you still do it anyway? Has anyone here ever had a dream come true? Do dreams come true? Or is the definition of a dream; something that is eternally intangible? If so, whenever a goal is reached, or a dream realised, then that goal, that dream is automatically... gone? Why do we persevere in the first place? Or are we just following an instruction set, passed down to us? Maybe the problem is one of substance... But how do we fill ourselves, if we don't pursue what dreams we have? But you're right, when it comes down to it, where would be the satisfaction in achieving something that has no merit whatsoever? Unless it fills you of course. Sorry

[truncated]

You and I are talking about two completely different things/mindsets, h8kurdt.

[h8kurdt]

Well then elaborate on what you mean trunc.

[truncated]

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.

I'm not necessarily talking about the pursuit of a dream or goal.

I refer to my earlier example of the morphine chick; or, say, those who never graduated high school, and decide to get their GED at 72 before they die.

Accomplishments like that serve only to assuage people's feelings of inadequacy.

Completely useless and irrelevant observation, but there you have it.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

Well then elaborate on what you mean trunc.

I have been; you just ain't payin' attention, boy.

[h8kurdt]

I suppose in them cases you are right. They realise they're gonna die so theyh get desperate to do the things they should of done years before, it's the same when they find religion. I'm looking it at an age where your young a wanting to find/fulfil your dreams.

Alyssa-I remember reading the pink Floyd biog and Roger Waters was saying how after 'dark side of the moon' the motivation to make a number 1 album and make loads of money was gone,why? Cos they had done it already, what next, go back to their day jobs or just carry on to satisfy your fans and your want for more money?. Manic street preacher's original idea was to make a 15million selling album then spilt cos they can say there dream had been fulfilled....aaah dammit what was my point in this? Make your own damn point.

And dammit trunky stop patronising me by calling me boy!

[truncated]

It's a term of endearment, darling.

[alyasa]

Inadequacy -
or guilt.
True, just because someone has spent most of their life as a philanthropist, doesn't mean it will make up for being a Nazi sympathizer during WWII. Similarly, the morphine chick doesn't automatically become absolved for a life hiding behind drugs, because she gives it up at the last moment. You do have to face up to your past before you can look to your future, a fundamental nature of man. You have to overcome yourself, before you can overcome any external obstacles. The morphine chick would have had a lifetime of opportunities to become a better person, but she only chose until it was too late to pursue a goal, that by then, would have lost its significance anyway. All the more reason, I believe, for dreams to be kept, like a treasured photograph, or a memory of better times. What better motivation would there be to climb up out of the heap?