[chabib]

Originally Posted by shitstain

chabib your argument about release dates giving everyone a fair chance to hear it at the same time so no one can hold anything over anyones head is the same reasoning people use to make people wear uniforms

i know. elitism is lame and isolating. i agree with that.

[Feelyat]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

I don't see why any sort of reverence should be attached to the release date.

Well, some people just don't care about timing, I suppose. And of course it doesn't matter to you -- that was the whole point of my lengthy post.

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

If the concerns are economic, I can't think of a better way to promote your band than allowing as many people as possible to hear your music.

This is a non-issue. Clearly only hardcore Sonic Youth fans are going to download the leaked copies of their upcoming record. Average Joe Internet doesn't give a shit about "Do You Believe In Rapture?", I'm sure.

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

If the concerns are artistic, music is music. It's not going to be effected [sic] by packaging or anything like that.

I think a lot of people care about packaging. I think that number is steadily decreasing as the internet gets bigger and bigger, but I do think that a significant number of people are affected in some way by the packaging, by the physical presentation of the music.

And packaging aside, sure, music is music, but a lot can be said of the fidelity of the music. If it's in an inferior format, the music probably isn't going to be effective in the way it was intended. It's like all those people that go to art museums and take digital photos of paintings. You can say an image is an image, but the actual painting is always going to be more intriguing than the digital photo of it.

[scott v]

Originally Posted by shitstain

put myself in sonic youths shoes? i dont know if i really understand the way they want to put out an album. if they want to put out an album so that everyone gets it at the same time, the same quality? then just put the best possibly quality (if thats what they want) on the internet. this does not meet a lot of peoples demands on sonic youth and does not make them much money, but that is a way. or if they still wanted to go the cd route, they could not send advance copies to anyone and keep it very tight. but the reality is, it will be leaked. the only way you can control it not being leaked is by leaking it yourself, and by leaking it yourself i mean releasing the album officially on the internet.

chabib your argument about release dates giving everyone a fair chance to hear it at the same time so no one can hold anything over anyones head is the same reasoning people use to make people wear uniforms

this is the response i expected... you seem to carry on about how you feel you want to hear the music the band has created without really thinking like Sonic Youth... i think alot of the fans who have downloaded as they've itched too long to not hear the album NOW are just being utterly impatiently selfish, thats the bottomline. how has it become the public (fans) right to hear the music entirely on their terms when the music itself is copyrighted to the artists the originators of it... being a musician myself, i'd have to say that i'd be quite dissappointed if i knew my band's album that was to be released (in a couple of months) was being distributed in this fashion but thats just my opinion.

[truncated]

I don't understand how this is still even being discussed.

SY DOES NOT WANT YOU TO DOWNLOAD THE ALBUM

THEY MADE IT, NOT YOU

SO DON'T FUCKING DOWNLOAD IT

YOU IGNORANT DUMBASSES

[shitstain]

Originally Posted by scott v

this is the response i expected... you seem to carry on about how you feel you want to hear the music the band has created without really thinking like Sonic Youth... i think alot of the fans who have downloaded as they've itched too long to not hear the album NOW are just being utterly impatiently selfish, thats the bottomline. how has it become the public (fans) right to hear the music entirely on their terms when the music itself is copyrighted to the artists the originators of it... being a musician myself, i'd have to say that i'd be quite dissappointed if i knew my band's album that was to be released (in a couple of months) was being distributed in this fashion but thats just my opinion.

i think you are misinterpreting my thoughts as advocating music downloading rather than advocating the realization of this reality. you can fight and fight to keep the old way, but it's dying. the new way should be appropriated and fucked with to fit into your life.

[scott v]

This is a non-issue. Clearly only hardcore Sonic Youth fans are going to download the leaked copies of their upcoming record. Average Joe Internet doesn't give a shit about "Do You Believe In Rapture?", I'm sure.

I'm not too sure about this... but from my experience, prior to Nurse being released, i knew and heard of several people who were NOT SY fans and were intentionally getting a hold of leaked mp3 copies of that album at least a month prior to the release. it didn't make sense to me, but it was a reality. ironically it was the same types of people who go crazy downloading as much rare and hard to find shit as possible (whether it was live, or leaked, bootlegged recordings) and then want to brag about what they got, those weird hippy Phish-heads with nothing to do are the ones that instantly spring to mind as they seem to flourish in my neck of the woods and remember one dude actually saying "oh i love the Youth! yeah i have that yet to be released new album!!!".

(I vividly remember my friend and i discussing in confusion as to who the hell would say they "love the YOUTH!" without saying SONIC?!?!?!)

[Feelyat]

Originally Posted by shitstain

you can fight and fight to keep the old way, but it's dying. the new way should be appropriated and fucked with to fit into your life.

I completely agree. Lee Ranaldo fucked with with the vinyl format by having every track on his From Here to Infinity slip into a locked groove. Now the format is mp3s and file trading. It needs to get fucked with at every level -- especially at the leakage level. I'm sure an artist could come up with some way to utilize our interest in leaking records to their artistic advantage.

[truncated]

Just kill me now.

[Feelyat]

Originally Posted by scott v

...from my experience, prior to Nurse being released, i [sic] knew and heard of several people who were NOT SY fans and were intentionally getting a hold [sic] of leaked mp3 copies of that album at least a month prior to the release. it [sic] didn't make sense to me, but it was a reality.

Huh. Fancy that. Well if it turned them onto SY, then I suppose that's a good aspect of record leakage.

[scott v]

Originally Posted by shitstain

i think you are misinterpreting my thoughts as advocating music downloading rather than advocating the realization of this reality. you can fight and fight to keep the old way, but it's dying. the new way should be appropriated and fucked with to fit into your life.

I agree with you, about this way of music distribution is dying because of technology of the internet but is the new way really better than what is the way now? i don't think so...online or internet releasing seems to be a rather "cold" way of handling this artform.

[scott v]

Originally Posted by Feelyat

Huh. Fancy that. Well if it turned them onto SY, then I suppose that's a good aspect of record leakage.

Unfortunately, it didn't really turn them onto Sonic Youth it was seemingly a deliberate attempt to make them look "cool" outside their crowd of hippy friends, a way of becoming "indie-hip" to make themselves think they are diversifying their musical tastes... i saw it first hand, it initially made me sick...but now i could give a rats ass except for the fact they intentionally grabbed this music for the wrong reasons.

[shitstain]

well my opinion on mp3s is my own and individual. i dont think there is any format i like more or less than each other, they all fit their purposes. if i had to choose only one format to listen to forever, i'd choose vinyl, for all kinds of reasons.

[scott v]

Originally Posted by AssBlaster

Your mom is a "cold" way of handling this artform.

a nice way of diverting this topic to an immature level, how typical from one who calls himself an "Assblaster"... thanks for the subtle hint of just stopping now... because, i don't need to stoop to this level of garbage and are any of us really changing each others minds about this subject?

[scott v]

Originally Posted by shitstain

well my opinion on mp3s is my own and individual. i dont think there is any format i like more or less than each other, they all fit their purposes. if i had to choose only one format to listen to forever, i'd choose vinyl, for all kinds of reasons.

yeah imagine if it was 198? whatever (even before the massmarket of the "cd") and waiting to hear a new album... i think we are more "spoiled" than ever these days, that i believe is the downfall of this mp3-itunes/ipod etc etc technology, though it has soo many positives.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by truncated

I
hate
smug
pretentious
bastards

I just realized that that looked like I was directing that at chabib, but I wasn't. It was in response to his post. Just had to clear that up.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by truncated

What an artist puts out is owned by them. It is their property. They choose the terms of its dissemination to the public.

I don't think this is a difficult concept -

If a band doesn't want ITS music available before a certain date, then it shouldn't be! Who the fuck are you (again, general you) to demand anything otherwise? Did you write it? Did you produce it? Did you record it? Then it ain't yours, and you ought to show some damn respect and let them call the shots.

How does one own music, exactly? It's not tangable, it has no physical attributes. What, do they own space? Do they own the sound waves? If I play "Dirty Boots" on my guitar, am I stealing from Sonic Youth? Or am I the owner of that music? If I own a cd filled with their music, do I own that music?

I've noticed that bootleg trading is a rather popular practice on this board. But, if as you suggest, Sonic Youth "owns" the music, than aren't these recordings a lack of respect towards the band? I mean, if the band really wanted all of these people who weren't at the concert to hear that music, wouldn't Sonic Youth come into everyone's living rooms and put on a personal show? Shouldn't we be showing some respect and allowing them to "call the shots"?

I think this is simple -

if SY believed that was the best course of action to take, there'd be a link on this site to Ripped tracks.

Is there? Hmm? Hmm?

Even if Sonic Youth wanted to, Geffen records wouldn't allow that. You see, for them, this is business, and Sonic Youth's music is a commodity. They want to make money.

And you know, it was mentioned earlier how Thurston wanted the release date to be 6/6/06. The label forced them to push back the date. Oh no. Their art is being comprimised! The horror! Should we put up a disclaimer?

*ATTENTION SONIC YOUTH FANS: THE BAND WANTED US TO BE ABLE TO HEAR THE NEW ALBUM ON JUNE 6TH. SO IF YOU WANT TO DOWNLOAD THE NEW ALBUM AT THE TIME, IT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THEIR INTENTIONS*

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by scott v

i have to disagree abit here, is it really "promoting" by having as many people hear your music as possible for a release date? yeah thats the purpose of distibuted PROMO copies but what about those who've created mp3s out of these PROMOS and widley distribute it on soulseek? is it still promotion for the band? or is it way for greedy little fish to take advantage of someone elses musical work for their own self satisifaction...

Um. More people listening to your music = more fans = more people showing up at concerts = more people buying the music.

People who buy music are going to buy music.

Music is music but w/ SY and alot of bands (not all) packaging and artwork is also a significant factor if you think otherwise then you seem to be missing somethign about what the band has been doing...

I can see how the packaging can be considered artwork, but it has no bearing on the music. I don't particuarly like a lot of their packaging, it's not the reason I'm a Sonic Youth fan.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by Feelyat

Well, some people just don't care about timing, I suppose. And of course it doesn't matter to you -- that was the whole point of my lengthy post.


This is a non-issue. Clearly only hardcore Sonic Youth fans are going to download the leaked copies of their upcoming record. Average Joe Internet doesn't give a shit about "Do You Believe In Rapture?", I'm sure.


I think a lot of people care about packaging. I think that number is steadily decreasing as the internet gets bigger and bigger, but I do think that a significant number of people are affected in some way by the packaging, by the physical presentation of the music.

We're pretty much in agreement about all this.

And packaging aside, sure, music is music, but a lot can be said of the fidelity of the music. If it's in an inferior format, the music probably isn't going to be effective in the way it was intended. It's like all those people that go to art museums and take digital photos of paintings. You can say an image is an image, but the actual painting is always going to be more intriguing than the digital photo of it.

I understand what you're saying, but it's irrelevant. Sonic Youth can't control every single aspect of my listening conditions, even if I purchase the album. Maybe I have a really shitty stereo while someone else has top of the line audio equipment. I guess their experience of that music is closer to the artist's intentions than mine. But either way, Sonic Youth have no control over it.

[scott v]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

Um. More people listening to your music = more fans = more people showing up at concerts = more people buying the music.

People who buy music are going to buy music.



I can see how the packaging can be considered artwork, but it has no bearing on the music. I don't particuarly like a lot of their packaging, it's not the reason I'm a Sonic Youth fan.

ok, NOT in all cases that people listening to your music = more fans = more people showing up at concerts = more people buying the music.

that is an assumption, a rather safe assumption that that is happening, in reality for a band like Sonic Youth, due to their accessability which we all know they have limitations to (as compared to mainstream musics like the U2s and the Coldplays...etc etc) i think that outside their core fans they hold this "casche" value to alot of general music fans, alot of these folks will have an interest because they've heard of/about Sonic Youth (they caryy abit of a household name because of their relationship to "alternative" music) but of these folks how many do you really believe get turned on to what they hear? though its definitly not millions or nothing i believe its a limited number... and my opinion is supported from my experience of some of the types of people that i know who obtained leaked Nurse songs a couple of years ago, these folks never bought the album, or went to the concert, are they fans? they say so...don't know why, other than to be considered "hip" to the scene.

but i have no doubt that everyone/anyone here who has dloaded the new album will buy it, i believe that 99% of us are "core fans" no arguing that, i just have the same problem as chabib, on those particular folks that seem to feel they need to "brag and review" heavily on what they love are hate about it... though its nice to hear somethign i think it should be within limitations.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by scott v

ok, NOT in all cases that people listening to your music = more fans = more people showing up at concerts = more people buying the music.

that is an assumption, a rather safe assumption that that is happening, in reality for a band like Sonic Youth, due to their accessability which we all know they have limitations to (as compared to mainstream musics like the U2s and the Coldplays...etc etc) i think that outside their core fans they hold this "casche" value to alot of general music fans, alot of these folks will have an interest because they've heard of/about Sonic Youth (they caryy abit of a household name because of their relationship to "alternative" music) but of these folks how many do you really believe get turned on to what they hear? i believe its a limited number... and my opinion is supported from my experience of some of the types of people that i know who obtained leaked Nurse songs, these folks never bought the album, or went to the concert, are they fans? they say so...don't know why other than to be "hip".

Right, well what I meant is that the more people who have access to the music, the greater your fanbase is going to be. If only 5 people have access to your music, then you only have 5 potential fans. If 1,000,000 people have access to your music, you have that many more. More people listening to your music cannot hurt you in terms of economics.

And let's not pretend downloading instead of buying an album does any great harm to the artist themself.