[pbradley]

I support the moderates on both sides.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by diskaholic-anonymous

how can you argue with silence?

Crusades, inquisitions, airstrikes, pograms, car bombs, etc.

Arguing with God is ultimately, in my opinion, an argument with yourself. God is the most dangerous existential concept.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by pbradley

God is the most dangerous existential concept.

Assuming he doesn't exist, that's true. If he does, atheism is the most dangerous rational concept. It's kind of a tail-chase at that level.

EDIT: Not meant to be antagonistic. I don't really care.

[pbradley]

No, that isn't assuming it doesn't exist. That is assuming that it may or may not exist and, if it does exist, then it exists in a way different than the conventional definition of existence. The latter understanding is common to pretty much every monotheistic religion I can think of.

[greedrex]

give peace a chance.
Both sides are right and wrong at the same time.
Both are innocent and guilty. This is pointless.
Forget the past and just say yes.

[fugazifan]

Originally Posted by Glice

I'd like to go to Jerusalem next year.

first round's on me!

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by pbradley

No, that isn't assuming it doesn't exist. That is assuming that it may or may not exist and, if it does exist, then it exists in a way different than the conventional definition of existence. The latter understanding is common to pretty much every monotheistic religion I can think of.

That's still a mostly rational approach, though, used by theologians and philosophers presenting existentialism to rationals. A real monotheistic-existential approach would be, "I feel I might go to hell, therefore God must exist."

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

While the palestinians shouldn't be launching rockets, what does Israel expect when they lay medieval seige against Gaza?

They are targeting the palestinian people with terror tactics to try to force those launching rockets to stop, but it will never work, and it is fucked up.

Israel is just a big fucking bully with all its money and guns, and one day somebody will do something about it.

[ithinkimissyou]

I support the innocents, and the people advocating non violent solutions.

You can't beat terrorists/freedom fighters(insert your bias here) with laser guided bombs from F-16's.

Nor can you beat a state with suicide bombers and unguided rockets.

No

You just stoke the fire further by doing either of those things.

Every time you murder an innocent, or destroy their homes, you run the risk of radicalising otherwise moderate people.

And on it goes.

Neither side can "win" this.

But this is a drearily inevitable chain of events. A real hunger or appetite for a mutually beneficial solution wont arise until many many more innocents have been killed, if ever.

It requires maturity, and if not openly, at least in private, accepting the legitimacy of your oppositions struggle.

My one, bias, is calling bullshit when I see a so-called democratic state aping the behaviour of people it terms terrorists, and that being regarded as legitimate.

Anyway.

My thoughts are with the innocents.

I hope the people on both sides get the leadership required to make peace a reality.

Strong, brave individuals who will be shot at, barked at by every hawk and war mongerer, but will stick resolutely to the cause of peace.

[pbradley]

It isn't that all rational if one favors Wittgenstein or Occam's razor since this kind of Godly existence is unintelligible and unknowable. I don't understand how the approach you describe is either necessarily monotheistic or existential. I've never heard a more existential notion of faith than Kierkegaard's teleological suspension of the ethical.

[tesla69]

I just find it very interesting that the island President-elect Obama was on had a power blackout seemingly around the same time as the Israeli attack started

yesterday there was a vigorous and excited march I ran into without warning on 5th Ave - I could see at least 10 blocks north, had to be thousands, and the excited cops gave a frightened aspect tot eh situation, athough they were hyper pleasant in waving the marchers down the side street.

It just seems dumb to me the Hamas would think they could spit rockets into Israel and get away with it.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by pbradley

It isn't that all rational if one favors Wittgenstein or Occam's razor since this kind of Godly existence is intelligible and unknowable. I don't understand how the approach you describe is either necessarily monotheistic or existential. I've never heard a more existential notion of faith than Kierkegaard's teleological suspension of the ethical.

I'm not familiar enough/at-all with those things to even try to respond. Touche, I think.

[greedrex]

Originally Posted by pbradley

It isn't that all rational if one favors Wittgenstein or Occam's razor since this kind of Godly existence is intelligible and unknowable. I don't understand how the approach you describe is either necessarily monotheistic or existential. I've never heard a more existential notion of faith than Kierkegaard's teleological suspension of the ethical.

that's exactly what i meant. I think.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I support the moderates on both sides.

What do you mean by this? I suppose you mean someone like Mahmoud Abbas who has been championed by most Western governments as the acceptable moderate. And yet this is a man whose party did not seem to understand that they lost an election and have become more or less collaborators with the Israelis. So where is your moderation? Personally, I think the sensible thing to do would be to accept the outcome of the elections and start to work with Hamas who have frequently offered ceasefires in return for highly reasonable demands, such as the return of Palestinian land illegally occupied by Israeli forces.

And it still amazes me the way people continually fall back on horrifically ignorant and one sided views. Firstly, as has already been pointed out, Israel is not under threat. Israel happens to be the regional superpower with an armed forces unmatched anywhere else in the middle east, and furthermore they have nuclear weapons. If people were actually to keep this in mind then the absurdity of touting the dire position Israel is in becomes all too obvious. This of course is compounded by the fact that, without any doubt, Israel has launched what should by rights be called a campaign of ethnic cleansing upon a group of people who have little by little had their land and livelihood stripped away by a state where the default course of action is utter barbarism.

The other part of this whole issue which infuriates me is the way people insist on staying completely uninformed. Hamas has long abandoned their policy which calls for the destruction of Israel and instead calls for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem." What they are demanding is that Israel recognise the 1967 borders. So why is this completely ignored? So Israel can demonize a people who have been so broken in every single respect many resort to suicide bombings in their utter desperation.

It is the state of Israel which clearly needs to take action, and need to abandon their frankly imperial designs in the Palestinian territory.

[Confucious is sex]

Originally Posted by soupisgoodfood

I support the Palestinians. Israelis/Judes has STOLEN this country, whit good help from UN and USA.

Who the fuck are 'Judes'? There is no such people, I do hope that's a second language English error and not a hideously inappropriate allusion to Hitler's yellow star policy? Also, 'Israeli' is not synonymous with 'Jew'. Oh, and while we're at it, 'Hamas' is not synonymous with 'Palestinian'.

Who, exactly, do you think that the country was stolen from, given that at the time the 'theft' I presume you are referring to took place - 1948 - there were Jews and Palestinians living there? If one wishes to be accurate with one's condemnation of the people who we now know as Israelis, they took full possession of a land that was only 50% theirs; not theft, so much as bad tenancy.

Finally, to those who wish to employ the argument that the Palestinians are not properly/equally armed, I offer the following: they were armed by Israel in order that they would be able to defend themselves; they are not a united nation and, therefore, have not been able to form a military; molatov cocktails are a much crueller attack on an individual than a bullet wound. Think on these...

[ZEROpumpkins]

Did anyone else think that the title was
"Israel vs. Humans?"

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Confucious is sex

Oh, and while we're at it, 'Hamas' is not synonymous with 'Palestinian'.

Not sure if you're up on your geopolitics, but the IDF has been attacking the Hamas security installations in Gaza-- this is not a blanket attack on Palestinians, thought some people sure would like to paint it that way. Last I heard, there aren't any Apache gunships entering the West Bank, which is governed by Fatah. Hence, Israel vs. Hamas, that's what it is going on at the moment.

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by Confucious is sex

Who, exactly, do you think that the country was stolen from, given that at the time the 'theft' I presume you are referring to took place - 1948 - there were Jews and Palestinians living there? If one wishes to be accurate with one's condemnation of the people who we now know as Israelis, they took full possession of a land that was only 50% theirs; not theft, so much as bad tenancy.

Finally, to those who wish to employ the argument that the Palestinians are not properly/equally armed, I offer the following: they were armed by Israel in order that they would be able to defend themselves; they are not a united nation and, therefore, have not been able to form a military; molatov cocktails are a much crueller attack on an individual than a bullet wound. Think on these...

"Bad tenancy". Ha. You are employing the technique of tyrants and murderers everywhere, twisting words to mask the reality of what is going on. Use plain English to describe what is going on, not an elaborate series of euphemisms.

Also, I have no idea what your incoherent mumblings in your second paragraph are alluding to. Are you suggesting that because Molotov cocktails are thrown at the vehicles of an occupying force that the saturation bombing of urban areas is somehow justified? And what do you mean "they were armed by Israel".

[Radioactive Poltergeist]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

Not sure if you're up on your geopolitics, but the IDF has been attacking the Hamas security installations in Gaza-- this is not a blanket attack on Palestinians, thought some people I'm sure would like to paint it that way. Last I heard, there aren't any Apache gunships entering the West Bank, which is governed by Fatah. Hence, Israel vs. Hamas, that's what it is going on at the moment.

Are you kidding? These attacks are seriously hurting the Palestinian people and if you believe that this was not intended by the Israeli government then you are being foolish. These are serious attacks on an infrastructure which has been seriously weakened by countless attacks on it for that very purpose.

[Toilet & Bowels]

I heard that the extreme christian right in the USA are all too keen for the Israel Palestine conflict because they believe it will kick off World War 3 in the middle east, which will instigate armageddon, and thus the second coming of Christ.

Not that that is a particularly valid addition to the discussion but i was shocked when i heard it, and i don't get shocked very often.