[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

doh, "newsflash"? cmon dude. what the fuck. you wanna teach me latin american history now? the spanish didn't leave,



sometimes you twist things to absurd ends to prove your point. yes, the imagery stuck, so what? syncretism was in operation from the start. the jesuits and dominicans knew how to wrap christian messages into native religions-- go read some of the sor juana plays, read "el divino narciso" and see how theology operated back in those days. missionaries can infect a culture for generations. then again, the aztecs were not exactly the sweetest of people, so christianity might have been an improvement in that case, but not everyone was aztec in mexico (newsflash), go call a maya "aztec" when you wanna insult someone.

dude.. I ain't trying to convert or preach to anyone here, just trying to discuss the Virgin and all Her aspects, either religious, artistic or cultural. You and me BOTH know well that Mexicans sincerely love, honor and cherish the Virgin, for a million and one deeply personal reasons, and it is not simply the result of Spanish cultural domination, or of the upper class creoles.. Nobody is more bravely individual then poor, rural Mexicans, and if they didn't see a personal reason to support Our Lady, surely they would have threw Her in the garbage with the burnt tortillas (at least that's what my Mexican grandmas taught me )..

i won't question that christianity has given birth to a very rich cultural output, it's evident it has, in art and philosophy and literature and music and so forth-- but it's humans that create that output with whatever they have at hand--

what am i mumbling about here? i forgot. all i'm saying is, yes, you want to prove that christianity is so special, fine, go ahead, but don't stretch the truth to absurd points. "oh, look, la virgen de guadalupe". well, sure. it's the religious imagination and creativity of mexican people that has kept that alive, an yes, mothers are potent symbols, anybody knows taht. there's a psychological experiment where they had group therapy where they put a subliminal message that said "MOMMY AND I ARE ONE" and people started spilling the beans at a faster rate.

so, religion makes use of the potent mother image. brilliant.

THIS IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY!

You nailed my point entirely, and I thank you

sweet jesus man, I just wanted to have an intelligent discussion about the Virgin as Art and Culture. If I wanted to preach or get into a religious discussion I would have brought this conversation to my parish over afternoon coffee. I don't think that Christianity is special necessarily because I think that its true, actually I can think of Christianity as a concept entirely separate from my own faith, and I can admire its art and culture for the sake of art and culture alone, not just to prop up or justify my faith.

Originally Posted by suchfriendsaredangerous

BUT TO READ A POEM AS A CHRONICLE OF FACT IS-TO SAY THE LEAST-TO MISS THE POINT. TO SAY A LITTLE MORE, IT IS TO PROVE ONESELF A DOLT. AND TO ADD TO THIS, THE MEN WHO PUT THESE BOOKS TOGETHER WERE NOT DOLTS BUT KNEW PRECISELY WHAT THEY WERE DOING - AS THE EVIDENCE OF THEIR MANNER OF WORK REVEALS AT EVERY TURN.



THE FIRST DECISIVE STEP TOWARD A READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT AS A PRODUCT, LIKE EVERY OTHER PIECE OF ANCIENT LITERATURE, NOT OF GOD'S LITERARY TALENT, BUT OF MAN'S..

One of the points of this thread was that I was hoping to discuss the symbolic and artistic potency of Christianity and Judaism, and thankfully we all managed to do that. seriously, much much thanks to you all for contributing relatively proactively.