Sonic Youth Gossip - View Single Post - Do you males on this board ever feel any shame about the way you view women?

!@#$%! · 06.02.2010, 09:05 PM

Hello Knoxy. Good to hear back from you.

I'm somehow shocked that you say that you're not posting real women. Because that's like the ultimate admission of objetification. There is no such thing as a woman that is not 'real'. It's that very thought that baffles me.

that's why i posted the pipe image-- "this isn't a pipe" (it's a picture of a pipe) (also, it's a french joke). my point is that those pictures are pictures, not women. we often equate the image with the thing but there is a disconnect. those images are objects. they aren't women.

now, you could argue that those images promote the objectification of women, but that's a different debate. i'd be happy to discuss that but i first wanted to get out of the way that pictures are NOT people.

The very same thinking you've shown: You gotta take me out for a coffee so I can become a real person. Do you understand that many people have turned it into that? The first assumption is I am an object (as long as you don't know me I don't need to be seen as a human being). If you don't take me for a cup of coffee I remain like that.

I've never assumed that you are an object because you have never presented yourself as such. We've had talks on and off threads and I don't know why you would assume I think you're not a "real" person. The coffee thing-- was just a hypothetical, not to take literally. I was just attempting to contrast the object/commodity (the sexy picture) from the actual existence of actual people whose picture was taken.

It is true that there are many idiots out there who commodify other people (the size of their wallet, their penis, their bra size, their social status, etc), but that is a deeper problem than the existence of pornographic pictures. Both men and women tend to approach relationships as some kind of market transaction in which they can exchange "desirable attributes"-- just look at personal ads.

That happens in real life to real women as a consequence of these twisted thoughts. I don't know one woman who hasn't felt that way. It's nothing new tho. Women have been objects/property in most societies for thousands of years now. (Drop your father's name take your husband's name now that you've changed owners).

Funny, my wife has kept her own last name as we find that name change a bit ridiculous. And I know that happens in real life, but again, it goes beyond just sex.

And then you get people with Rob's cop out strategy:
I am a good guy, ya'll. In real life, I treat women real nice. Things have been worse in our society before, so I think it's all ok!!!! I don't need to think about the morals behind my actions because everyone's doing it guys!

YOU KNOW, that's the majority.

Well, I truly believe in Rob's good faith and I think he's nice to his girlfriend and loves her and would do anything for her. I'm not ready to condemn him because he likes pictures of girls with big asses.

There are OTHER people however who see women as nothing more than "a piece of ass", but I actually think that's a psychopathic minority, and that most people are looking for meaningful relationships in spite of the fact that we live in a very deranged society.

Having recognized that, I'll say that I cannot make myself responsible for the sins of all humanity. There was a dude who tried that, and they crucified him.

From my point of view, everytime you bring something out men get pretty defensive as if they're being accused or something or whatever. It's not like they wanna hear what it feels like, they just want to excuse themselves. It's not like most people are prepared to find out that even tho they are mostly good people, we also take part in the most evil of the human world.

Yeah I see your point and you're right on the mark there. Which reminds me of the very final scene in "Demonlover". You've seen it?

However, I don't think that desire or asthetic enjoyent or whatever it is that gives a market to pornography is bad in itself--- it's that the pornography exploits desire and natural human instincts.

But the thing is, very few people take pornography seriously and/or guide their lives by it. Sure, there are mental cases, and shut-ins, and but for most people it's simply a masturbation aid and not a guide to life.

Sometimes not doing is way way more criminal than doing.

I don't get how this applies to this exactly, maybe you care to elaborate or maybe it's not central to your argument-- your call.

I DONT KNOW, but you know. There are women on this forum. Perhaps we just get fucking tired of seeing tits and ass and pussies everywhere. Maybe it makes us FEEL bad. Maybe that should be kept in some wanking guys threads, just so we'd know, just out of some degree of respect.

Yes, ok, I do see your point. Sometimes this feels too much like a sailor bar, but it's up to those who do not like that environment to either fight back or create alternative spaces or just avert your eyes. Which goes back to my point of the free board-- you have to tolerate shit, but you have every right to give shit as well.

So-- give us shit! You definitely have my ear and I'm not making excuses.

Wow, I've written a lot here and I don't know how the whole thing reads. I hope it makes sense.

06.02.2010, 09:05 PM	#262
!@#$%! invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: mars attacks Posts: 42,499	Hello Knoxy. Good to hear back from you. I'm somehow shocked that you say that you're not posting real women. Because that's like the ultimate admission of objetification. There is no such thing as a woman that is not 'real'. It's that very thought that baffles me. that's why i posted the pipe image-- "this isn't a pipe" (it's a picture of a pipe) (also, it's a french joke). my point is that those pictures are pictures, not women. we often equate the image with the thing but there is a disconnect. those images are objects. they aren't women. now, you could argue that those images promote the objectification of women, but that's a different debate. i'd be happy to discuss that but i first wanted to get out of the way that pictures are NOT people. The very same thinking you've shown: You gotta take me out for a coffee so I can become a real person. Do you understand that many people have turned it into that? The first assumption is I am an object (as long as you don't know me I don't need to be seen as a human being). If you don't take me for a cup of coffee I remain like that. I've never assumed that you are an object because you have never presented yourself as such. We've had talks on and off threads and I don't know why you would assume I think you're not a "real" person. The coffee thing-- was just a hypothetical, not to take literally. I was just attempting to contrast the object/commodity (the sexy picture) from the actual existence of actual people whose picture was taken. It is true that there are many idiots out there who commodify other people (the size of their wallet, their penis, their bra size, their social status, etc), but that is a deeper problem than the existence of pornographic pictures. Both men and women tend to approach relationships as some kind of market transaction in which they can exchange "desirable attributes"-- just look at personal ads. That happens in real life to real women as a consequence of these twisted thoughts. I don't know one woman who hasn't felt that way. It's nothing new tho. Women have been objects/property in most societies for thousands of years now. (Drop your father's name take your husband's name now that you've changed owners). Funny, my wife has kept her own last name as we find that name change a bit ridiculous. And I know that happens in real life, but again, it goes beyond just sex. And then you get people with Rob's cop out strategy: I am a good guy, ya'll. In real life, I treat women real nice. Things have been worse in our society before, so I think it's all ok!!!! I don't need to think about the morals behind my actions because everyone's doing it guys! YOU KNOW, that's the majority. Well, I truly believe in Rob's good faith and I think he's nice to his girlfriend and loves her and would do anything for her. I'm not ready to condemn him because he likes pictures of girls with big asses. There are OTHER people however who see women as nothing more than "a piece of ass", but I actually think that's a psychopathic minority, and that most people are looking for meaningful relationships in spite of the fact that we live in a very deranged society. Having recognized that, I'll say that I cannot make myself responsible for the sins of all humanity. There was a dude who tried that, and they crucified him. From my point of view, everytime you bring something out men get pretty defensive as if they're being accused or something or whatever. It's not like they wanna hear what it feels like, they just want to excuse themselves. It's not like most people are prepared to find out that even tho they are mostly good people, we also take part in the most evil of the human world. Yeah I see your point and you're right on the mark there. Which reminds me of the very final scene in "Demonlover". You've seen it? However, I don't think that desire or asthetic enjoyent or whatever it is that gives a market to pornography is bad in itself--- it's that the pornography exploits desire and natural human instincts. But the thing is, very few people take pornography seriously and/or guide their lives by it. Sure, there are mental cases, and shut-ins, and but for most people it's simply a masturbation aid and not a guide to life. Sometimes not doing is way way more criminal than doing. I don't get how this applies to this exactly, maybe you care to elaborate or maybe it's not central to your argument-- your call. I DONT KNOW, but you know. There are women on this forum. Perhaps we just get fucking tired of seeing tits and ass and pussies everywhere. Maybe it makes us FEEL bad. Maybe that should be kept in some wanking guys threads, just so we'd know, just out of some degree of respect. Yes, ok, I do see your point. Sometimes this feels too much like a sailor bar, but it's up to those who do not like that environment to either fight back or create alternative spaces or just avert your eyes. Which goes back to my point of the free board-- you have to tolerate shit, but you have every right to give shit as well. So-- give us shit! You definitely have my ear and I'm not making excuses. Wow, I've written a lot here and I don't know how the whole thing reads. I hope it makes sense.
	\|QUOTE AND REPLY\|