[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

for knoxter (i'm skipping over the cockfest above):

my post was addressing the complaint that was articulated by porky and glice (not sure in the same vein, but anyway) that people tend to post too much tit and ass in this board and this turns off/offends people as it is seen as objectification of their gender.

my response however was not aimed at social activity and real people-- it was aimed at pictures posted on the internet. the pictures that we post here are usually those of media personalities / porn people who make a business of marketing their genitals for a buck. and we're dealing with pictures-- not real persons.

as a 3rd world person, i grew up consorting with whores since age 15, because "good girls" didn't put out until they were in the university. i was horny, there was an avenue for it, so it was a good 3 years until i finally could have sex with a girl i loved, and then i never looked back. i'll tell you this, however-- i never "objectified" the whores-- they were people, some very nice, we got along well most of the time, we'd fuck and chat and have a nice little personal connection until someone would knock the door (always too soon).

now, is prostitution wrong? i believe that depends on their working conditions. but regardless of their business- did i treat those women as a piece of meat to be discarded? no i didn't-- i treated them respectfully and affectionately and with immense gratitude-- they were helping me get my rocks off, they gave me something voluntarily for which they got something in return, and i was ready to build them a little altar in my home. i have some fond memories of them and i hope they are doing well. but they were people, real people, not objects.

however, it is easy to objectify/reify/dehumanize PICTURES of people who WILLINGLY SELL THESE IMAGES as objects of desire-- and i'd venture that most of those people enjoy that as a sort of power they hold over their audience. it's a mutually agreed-upon transaction and the object itself is the currency being trafficked. they are not selling their "souls", just pictures of their bodies.

take for example bai-ling. she's a terrible actress but she's hot. here's a picture of her:

 

while i'm sure that's airbrushed, i believe it to be a genuine picture, because i do recognize her nipples. she purposefully slips them out often:

 

is it wrong to see her as a non-person bearer of nipples? i'm not having a cup of coffee with her and hearing about her childhood dreams. she hasn't told me what's her favorite color or what books have changed her life and how she feels about the oil spill in the gulf-- she presents herself as tits and ass. it's her business, and people spend a ton of money to consume visions of said tits and ass. she makes money for it.

while having sexual desire for a real person does not entail turning them into a thing, a thing (picture) meant to arouse sexual desire is already an object, not a person, and it's fair game for treating it like an object. there's a huge difference between real people and pictures of people, at least for me.

anyway, on that same line of thought-- let's assume i get to meet bai-ling in person, and we have a nice dinner and talk about stuff and we hit it off she invites me to her bedroom (hey, we can all fantasize), she would then cease to be an object (picture) and turn into a real person by virtue of our interaction.

what we post here are not the souls and stories of real people. they are just pictures. the dehumanization occurred at the moment the photo was taken, not when some horny person decided to post it here.

 

now, some people will find those pictures offensive, but that's another story. i just wanted to clarify that we're not posting "real women" here, we're posting pictures of tits and ass that were created expressly for the purpose of elliciting desire-- from the "classy":

 

to the grotesque:

(just reached my picture limit but you can find it here)
http://www.juggworld.com/images/categories/bigtits.jpg

blame the patriarchy if you will for such kind of commerce, but remember that "the patriarchy" is not men alone. women participate equally in it.

Dear *&¨%¨%

Whether this people chose or not to sell a dehumanized idea of themselves for some bucks, very often the ways that we come across them (specially women) have nothing to do with choice.

I don't agree with censorship and I have never suggested it. My initial point was when I come to a Sonic Youth forum it generally means I expect to find something other than I can find in adverts and gossip magazines. Hence the dissapointment when I suddenly realized for a few days the main activity was no different than the one you see in any given shitty website.

I cannot help being surrounded by these objectifying images of women, for as long as I can remember. I cannot help being categorized, patronized, and labelled according to them. I can't help the pressure they have brought upon. I can't help the feeling of void whenever I notice people's ability to completely dehumanize a body (because if we're to be honest that's what we feel - we know at some point it was or will be done to us). Therefore, I had no choice. NO CHOICE AT ALL.

I never once blamed men solely for sexism and once again I'm insulted that you even suggest that I need to remember that. All I need to do is voice my opinion and suddenly I'm labelled in a stereotypical category that's people's idea of feminism.

Women are incredibly sexist and in many ways responsible for perpetuating patriarchal ideals. Women are not the only victims of sexism - it's humanity in general.

I'm somehow shocked that you say that you're not posting real women. Because that's like the ultimate admission of objetification. There is no such thing as a woman that is not 'real'. It's that very thought that baffles me.

The very same thinking you've shown: You gotta take me out for a coffee so I can become a real person. Do you understand that many people have turned it into that? The first assumption is I am an object (as long as you don't know me I don't need to be seen as a human being). If you don't take me for a cup of coffee I remain like that.

That happens in real life to real women as a consequence of these twisted thoughts. I don't know one woman who hasn't felt that way. It's nothing new tho. Women have been objects/property in most societies for thousands of years now. (Drop your father's name take your husband's name now that you've changed owners).

And then you get people with Rob's cop out strategy:
I am a good guy, ya'll. In real life, I treat women real nice. Things have been worse in our society before, so I think it's all ok!!!! I don't need to think about the morals behind my actions because everyone's doing it guys!

YOU KNOW, that's the majority.

From my point of view, everytime you bring something out men get pretty defensive as if they're being accused or something or whatever. It's not like they wanna hear what it feels like, they just want to excuse themselves. It's not like most people are prepared to find out that even tho they are mostly good people, we also take part in the most evil of the human world.

Sometimes not doing is way way more criminal than doing.

I DONT KNOW, but you know. There are women on this forum. Perhaps we just get fucking tired of seeing tits and ass and pussies everywhere. Maybe it makes us FEEL bad. Maybe that should be kept in some wanking guys threads, just so we'd know, just out of some degree of respect.