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Originally Posted by ThePits

Firstly there was no "if" in what I said

I actually said "it works here" and it does

What you fail to understand is that every race, creed and colour has its own extremists who advocate discrimination

There is no group or society that I can think of that doesnt have its own brand of bigotry

Therefore no society is every going to eradicate discrimination totally

Its how we deal with it that counts

The UK has some of the best anti discrimination laws in the world, some of the best safeguards too

The overwhelming majority of people can apply for jobs and not have to worry about there origins or beliefs

The system isnt perfect, but it works

And this is in a country where a couple of our major cities now have over 50% of their population from ethnic minorities.

So much for my "crap" actuality and than your "imaginary" scenario

Next time try actually reading what I type

The majority of it is in words of one syllable, primarily for your benefit

Oh, and try taking that bag of King Edwards off your shoulder sometime

People might actually give a shit what you think then

first of all, you said "if":

Originally Posted by ThePits

If you treat everyone equally and give everyone the same education and opportunities why is "positive discrimination" necessary?

now, i know little of english politics-- part because i just don't give a shit, part because even if i did it doesn't affect me. as little as i know, however, i dont think england has a history of slavery and genocide within its own borders-- except for ireland, but most of the irish gained their independence some time ago.

i dont know if a city that has "over 50% of their population from ethnic minorities" is a sign of racial justice. i don't know what access they have to power and money and education, and how they are treated by the other 49% (or whatever the actual figure is.)

if what you're trying to say in your own obscure way is that good antidiscrimination laws work better than compensating one discrimination with another, that's an interesting idea and you may have a point-- but you've offered no proof that it actually works. and since i know little of english politics, why should i believe you. i do a google "racism in england" and opposite points of view pop up. im not saying they are true either, but it looks like a lot of people disagree with your assessment. my point here is not to discuss their arguments, just to say that "if you treat everyone equally" sounds like an ideal on this sound of the atlantic, and as an unproven notion from where you're speaking.

additionally-- i dont fail to understand such a basic notion a each group having their own extremists advocating discrimination. i don't put the emphasize however in extremists, however-- i put the emphasis on regular citizens with the power to perpetuate racist crap without their knowledge.

what you are failing to understand is that institutionalized and highly ingrained racism don't require extremists. it's very easy to say "oh, the extremists" and deny any personal responsibility in the clusterfuck. it's always "someone else", some fringe creature who does it.

sure, it was just "the extremists" in nazi germany, right? everyone else was "just following orders"? what percentage of people do you require to go from fringe to mainstream? how much do mainstream people actually believe in part or whole, in the privacy of their thoughts, that which extremists espouse in public?

the myth of the extremist is a huge fallacy that people conveniently believe to exempt themselves of any guilt, but in doing so they also wash their hand of any responsibility. there is an important psychological distinction. white guilt is a stupid as any other guilt. but everyone is responsible for their own racism. nobody want to be though, because most people confuse responsibility with guilt, and with guilt comes denial, and with denial we just sweep the crap under the carpet and look the other way.

and the fact is that EVERYBODY is a bit of a racist, and this in part because everybody is taught to think in terms of "race", which is a fiction with no basis on biology. everybody thinks they know what race, and what "races" are, and spew about it with great authority, perpetuating the biggest hoax in history-- well above the 4-year liberal studies degree that clone mentions.

for example, there is more genetic diversity among africans than between all the other "races" put together. did you know that?

and yet, all africans are "blacks".

funny.

sure, maybe there is some circuit in the brain that tend to make quick judgments and generalizations in order to survive, and we can't help that. but what's funny is that it's such advance reasoning that governs our social interactions even to this day.

the fact is that societies have conveniently invented the notion of "race" in order to fuck over people who are "different". it's societies that decide "you're black, therefore we're going to chain you, sell you, give you lashes, make you work for nothing, rape your women, deny you basic human rights, and if you ever become free we're going to segregate you, deny you an education and economic opportunities and we're going to lynch you at every opportunity we got, and our cops are going to shoot you when they feel like it, and if they call for the police we're not going to respond, and and we're going to treat you like the piece of shit you think you are, to keep you in your place, which should have been confined to the slave quarters".

and they did that to all kinds of african people, and in spite of the fact that they were genetically more different from each other than, say, the queen of england and the emperor of china, they were all branded together as "the black race".

of course, people knew nothing of genetics until 50 years ago. some people know nothing about it even today. and even until not so long ago, people like the jews, italians, irish and other groups were considered "races".

when i came to the u.s. from latin america, for example, i discovered that i was "hispanic". 300,000,000 people and their federal government said so. i asked-- what the fuck is "hispanic race"? i mean, i have indian ancestors, and some north african jews, and black africans from who knows where, and italians, and basques, as far as i can trace back my genealogical tree-- i never thought of myself as a "race" in these rigid terms. even in racist latin america my "race" had alway been in question (more about that later), but now i had been assigned a solid label. i am "hispanic". whatever the fuck that means. i have refused the label, and when i put "human" as my race, the fuckers started issuing my paychecks addressed to "mr. human". no fucking joke. i am now the member of a racial fiction. thanks, fuckers!

anyway, it's time for breakfast, it's way past noon here, just wanted to show a bit of the depth of the rabbit hole and how much bulshit there is in these notions of "race" in the first place.

i know i haven't really expanded much about the useful scapegoat of the "extremist", and how racism is actually perpetuated by well-meaning mainstream people like those who post in this board, but i'll return to that later.