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!@#$%! · 11.27.2016, 10:45 AM

@ r. schunk - yes, but the new left had to develop because it could no longer win with the old formulas. reaganism/thatcherism were their death knell and the old-left institutions were picked apart and left to die.

part of it was dirty tricks, sure, but this was achievable because the public was fed up with labor unions that had gone too far and laissez-faire economics had the ideological upper hand. maybe things will swing back left again after this historical cycle burns out, but it's not done yet.

personally though i don't think we can bring socialism back and i wouldn't want to-- i lived for almost a year in an israeli kibbutz and have seen how things work there. also grew up under various socialistic regimes. maybe that can work with some people but i can't stand the reduction in individual freedom in exchange for safety. under capitalism you can at least choose how you die-- under collectivism you just die of boredom.

under socialism there is no equality either. since everything depends on the government, your degree of "equality" (in the orwellian, ironic, animal-farm sense) depends on your proximity to power. in other words-- those with connections get the juicy meat and those without them get stale bread. it's all about connections. humans are hierarchical animals and those behaviors can't be socially-engineered away. best we can do is use our intrinsic inequality for optimal ends.

plus, because the central planning is murder on the economy, there is always less juicy meat to go around--the elites get fat and the workers fight over scraps.

just look at what chavismo has done to venezuela. every day there is just more poverty to distribute. meanwhile, the chinese commies saw the light and now instead of famines they are fighting obesity.

i'm not a right winger, and yes a new left was needed to take over the old dead one, but overreliance on identity politics and the lack of a proper ideological update have made the new left a failure. clinton had 2 years of congress obama had 2 years of congress they had a knife at the throat for another 6. clinton undone by gingrich, and obama by the baggers.

weak.

but this country is a center-right country in spite of what me or you or someone else might individually believe. this isn't 1929 when socialism had a chance.

eta: then again, the millenials are so swamped in debt... the laissez-faire cycle might conceivably close once boomers start to fade

11.27.2016, 10:45 AM	#1884
!@#$%! invito al cielo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: mars attacks Posts: 42,486	@ r. schunk - yes, but the new left had to develop because it could no longer win with the old formulas. reaganism/thatcherism were their death knell and the old-left institutions were picked apart and left to die. part of it was dirty tricks, sure, but this was achievable because the public was fed up with labor unions that had gone too far and laissez-faire economics had the ideological upper hand. maybe things will swing back left again after this historical cycle burns out, but it's not done yet. personally though i don't think we can bring socialism back and i wouldn't want to-- i lived for almost a year in an israeli kibbutz and have seen how things work there. also grew up under various socialistic regimes. maybe that can work with some people but i can't stand the reduction in individual freedom in exchange for safety. under capitalism you can at least choose how you die-- under collectivism you just die of boredom. under socialism there is no equality either. since everything depends on the government, your degree of "equality" (in the orwellian, ironic, animal-farm sense) depends on your proximity to power. in other words-- those with connections get the juicy meat and those without them get stale bread. it's all about connections. humans are hierarchical animals and those behaviors can't be socially-engineered away. best we can do is use our intrinsic inequality for optimal ends. plus, because the central planning is murder on the economy, there is always less juicy meat to go around--the elites get fat and the workers fight over scraps. just look at what chavismo has done to venezuela. every day there is just more poverty to distribute. meanwhile, the chinese commies saw the light and now instead of famines they are fighting obesity. i'm not a right winger, and yes a new left was needed to take over the old dead one, but overreliance on identity politics and the lack of a proper ideological update have made the new left a failure. clinton had 2 years of congress obama had 2 years of congress they had a knife at the throat for another 6. clinton undone by gingrich, and obama by the baggers. weak. but this country is a center-right country in spite of what me or you or someone else might individually believe. this isn't 1929 when socialism had a chance. eta: then again, the millenials are so swamped in debt... the laissez-faire cycle might conceivably close once boomers start to fade
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