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Originally Posted by gmku

I guess I don't see it in those terms. To be clear, I don't believe in conspicuous consumption, or in outright greed. But capitalism feels more to me like the weave of life, or like the skin we breathe in, not the uniform we put on. Services are rendered, services are paid for. I've met a few people who attempt to escape the system, who even think they've escaped, e.g., I know people who live in a bus to escape the system of banking and feeding the mortgage system, etc., and lo and behold, they're now RENTING space for their bus on property for which somebody else pays the MORTGAGE! (What they've done is basically become selfish people who live off the generosity of people who are still part of the capitalist system.) There is no escape from the system we live in. We can rail against it, hate it, and yet, it's what we have. I think we can make it better, and to my view, that means blending it with some form of socialism, but to think there's another way is simply delusional, I think.

I'm not part of the information economy, so I'm not seeing that happening, obviously. I would guess the change you describe might take place there without impacting the larger economy.

right. i'm actually moving from communally-owned land back to a city so that i can once again partake of the monetary economy full-time (the land thing was an experiment and we learned A TON).

and i plan to do work for money-- i.e., the WORK gets paid. especially if someone else controls it. "i need you to document this situation that i need to preserve for posterity". i go and i do the work and i charge money. i sell labor. i don't own the product, i like to do work for hire in these situations because i do not want to get into the business of managing the rights of a project that's not mine. so at the end i hand everything to the client and say "good luck." that's just like you writing a piece for an institutional publication-- they pay you and they own the publication.

where i am thinking open source is for art projects. where we don't charge for labor but instead pay the labor ourselves and then sell a PRODUCT.

this is a different animal altogether. because when you make art you want people to see it. but the economics of indie art are such that more people will pirate than pay for a product--making it a money loser-- unlike the economics of HBO where millions pirate but enough people pay for subscriptions to keep it churning.

so, i ask-- why suffer? why try to control the uncontrollable? tame the wind? cover up the sun? i'll try to use the wind and the sun in my favor instead-- give it away to the elements like plant pollen-- and attempt to make a living in a different, non-hoarder way. it's well worth exploring.

makes sense?

as for the naturalization of capitalism-- no. that's ideology-- brainwash, if you will.

for example, you don't apply capitalism within your family-- you don't charge rent to your kids or itemize their food consumption. you might keep separate bank accounts with your partner (i don't) but you don't keep a running tab of who owes what to whom, do you? one quits work to go to school, you don't charge them "student debt". the family is collectivist.

i'm not an extremist, but i come from a place where when you drink with friends you put your cigarettes in the middle of the table. you don't hoard them in your pocket. also, people don't "go dutch" at the restaurant. there's a reciprocity, but it's elsewhere, a bit like a family. there is less embarrassing bean-counting. "it's on me!" "okay, next one's on me". but nobody keeps track.

here in 'merica, bean-counting central, i am also member of various co-ops, which are member-owned and operated by different standards and values. i also like working with nonprofits of various sorts-- yes, some of them are just the ideological branches of capitalism, but still-- there are options and alternatives. people live in communes. people do co-housing. there's barter and freecycle. there is of course open source software and wikipedia. all sorts of things occur outside money-fueled markets. the ethos is changing.

with friends, we share favors and gifts and energy and time-- no keeping tallies or charging interest. capitalism is not a universal compulsory model. it's a choice. efficient for some things, destructive for others.

i'm not monotheistic. i enjoy mocking jealous angry gods who demand total worship.

make a little room for goofy hermes.

he likes creative commons orgies, i'm sure.

he smuggled orpheus out of hades after all, the tricky bastard.