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Severian 06.24.2015 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evollove
Okay. I have no idea what hardcore jazzheads think about this stuff, I now realize.

I wonder: how much shit did Miles get for In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, etc? Was the jazz community excited by a new direction, or were these records perceived as blasphemy?



Ok, here's how it seems to me: "Jazz people" are actually some of the most loyal, hardcore of all music fans. Classical music seems to inspire a similar kind of exclusive devotion, as does the blues to some degree.

But jazz is more like "classical" in he sense that there are so many different eras and periods and styles, each of which attracts its own ardent followers. So among many jazz heads. Some will insist that Be Bop is the only "true" jazz music. Others will say the same thing about hard bop or big band or whatever. So believe it or not, there are plenty of jazz freaks who believe to this day that Coltrane and Miles Davis were blasphemous sons of bitches.

Like I said, closed no nded.

evollove 06.25.2015 12:52 PM

Must suck to love a genre if you think it's been shit since 1958.

Rob Instigator 06.25.2015 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evollove
Okay. I have no idea what hardcore jazzheads think about this stuff, I now realize.

I wonder: how much shit did Miles get for In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, etc? Was the jazz community excited by a new direction, or were these records perceived as blasphemy?

----

I want to be a kind, generous listener, but those YES track titles! Especially side two. Gonna have to listen to this ironically at first.


Jazz is the use of theory to improvise upon existing melodies, using modulation, tempo, timbre, volume, etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME, essentially composing on the fly, which is it's innovation and basis for existence. Until you can instinctively improvise on electronic instruments and do all these things in real time, then you will not be playing Jazz music.

the main dixieland jazz community hated the swing era of jazz, and saw it as pop watered down crap. the swing jazz fans, once that was evolved into more artistic forms, hated the bebop era that did away with the swing/big band arrangements and stripped it all down to a small band. the bebop jazz mainstream hated the Hard Bop which took bebop and amped the shit up to 11, creating new forms. Once those were exhausted, the hard bop people hated on MIles "cool" modal jazz, based not on scales but on modal forms of music. When that became the mainstream, jazz fans started hating on Gillespie's explorations into latin samba and bahia music, combining jazz with polyphonic latin rhythms. Once that became mainstream, the Jazz fans hated the Free Jazz of cecil taylor and Ornette Coleman.

it goes on and on. the thing is, that until Miles Davis started making jazz albums with electric instruments, which, at the time, could not be modulated in as many ways as an acoustic instrument could (and still can't really, without three hundred effects pedals), jazz purists felt that what was being created was a new music, not Jazz.

ever since then the "jazz" is formalized and old-fashioned, even though there have been amazing jazz albums by people like Marcus Roberts and the Marsalis bros.

the rock and funk musicians that Miles played with were in no respect the equals musically of a seasoned Jazz musician. This drove people away from Fusion.

Oh, and Kenny G is not Jazz.

!@#$%! 06.25.2015 04:01 PM

 

 

 

YESSONGS (1973)

poorly recorded but a great album regardless. you can sooooo tell the difference when they switched drummers from bruford to alan white.

bruford in "perpetual change" is just... hot fucking damn.... *tremendous*

guest 06.25.2015 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor
NEVER seen this before^^^^^^

absolute classic, one of their last shows to my knowledge, so damn tight, TG totally in control of their sound. features this insane track which I guess is somehow based on united https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9jbKed3AZE

guest 06.25.2015 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Severian
I just bought this the other day, for whatever it's worth.

it is worth a lot :o :confused: :cool: I thought it was just the free download?? pretty incredible stuff, what you're talking about with regard to hip hop being a logical extension of jazz, this is probably the first time I've totally believed that. totally uninhibited stuff, everything on leaving at the minute is incredible.


 

!@#$%! 06.25.2015 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guest
it is worth a lot :o :confused: :cool: I thought it was just the free download?? pretty incredible stuff, what you're talking about with regard to hip hop being a logical extension of jazz, this is probably the first time I've totally believed that. totally uninhibited stuff, everything on leaving at the minute is incredible.


 


wass dat. amy poehler spoken world album?

Severian 06.25.2015 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Jazz is the use of theory to improvise upon existing melodies, using modulation, tempo, timbre, volume, etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME, essentially composing on the fly, which is it's innovation and basis for existence. Until you can instinctively improvise on electronic instruments and do all these things in real time, then you will not be playing Jazz music.

the main dixieland jazz community hated the swing era of jazz, and saw it as pop watered down crap. the swing jazz fans, once that was evolved into more artistic forms, hated the bebop era that did away with the swing/big band arrangements and stripped it all down to a small band. the bebop jazz mainstream hated the Hard Bop which took bebop and amped the shit up to 11, creating new forms. Once those were exhausted, the hard bop people hated on MIles "cool" modal jazz, based not on scales but on modal forms of music. When that became the mainstream, jazz fans started hating on Gillespie's explorations into latin samba and bahia music, combining jazz with polyphonic latin rhythms. Once that became mainstream, the Jazz fans hated the Free Jazz of cecil taylor and Ornette Coleman.

it goes on and on. the thing is, that until Miles Davis started making jazz albums with electric instruments, which, at the time, could not be modulated in as many ways as an acoustic instrument could (and still can't really, without three hundred effects pedals), jazz purists felt that what was being created was a new music, not Jazz.

ever since then the "jazz" is formalized and old-fashioned, even though there have been amazing jazz albums by people like Marcus Roberts and the Marsalis bros.

the rock and funk musicians that Miles played with were in no respect the equals musically of a seasoned Jazz musician. This drove people away from Fusion.

Oh, and Kenny G is not Jazz.


Yeah, pretty much.

I only disagree with your assertion that Jazz requires both improvisation and the real-time live reinterpretation of already existing melodies.

Many forms of jazz rely heavily on improvisation, and many of the most improvisational styles of jazz also use established melodies taken from either Broadway, swing, folk or chamber music standards, but there are plenty of other jazz subgenres that require little or no improvisation.

True, improv is one of the main characteristics of jazz as a whole, but the way you describe it, jazz can't exist without improvisation and an established melody. Polyrhythm and syncopation, swing notes are all equally important parts of the musical profile of jazz. I feel like what you're really talking about is cool jazz, which definitely relies heavily on improvisation over a traditional melody.

Also, I actually think that techno and beat and electronic hip-hop have evolved to the point where real time improvisation, and live manipulation of styles and sounds can be achieved. It's been like this for some time. It's not as modal as it is in jazz, but maybe that's because it's not an evolution of jazz itself, but the influence of jazz touching other former of music entirely.

But I really don't know. Hah.

!@#$%! 06.25.2015 08:27 PM

big bands don't improvise lots and some survive their founders like mingus or count basie what genre are they?

Severian 06.25.2015 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guest
it is worth a lot :o :confused: :cool: I thought it was just the free download??


Yeah, it is... sorry. Meant to say I just "got" it. I didn't actually believe the entire 3 hour album would be available entirely for free, but here we are.

A surprising relevant record to the discussion of Jazz elements coming out in subgenres of breakbeat, hip-hop, and other modern instrumental genres.

Really goddamn impressive piece of work, this. I'm very impressed by it.

Severian 06.25.2015 08:55 PM

Oh, and today I've been listening to this:

 


Pete Rock - Petestrumentals 2

Mortte Jousimo 06.26.2015 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
 

 

 

YESSONGS (1973)

poorly recorded but a great album regardless. you can sooooo tell the difference when they switched drummers from bruford to alan white.

bruford in "perpetual change" is just... hot fucking damn.... *tremendous*

Well, I donīt think Yessongs is poorly recorded. I think itīs one of the best live albums, but really could be even better if there were more songs where Bruford is in drums.

In Union live there are both, Bruford & White in drums. Even Bruford mostly take care of percussion works and White drums, I think itīs the best Yes live and specially drums are just dynamite! I think this is the best version of yours is no disgrace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jyNjyu7UA

Drumssolos are never been very enjoyable to me and I never liked electric drums, but this is great (and really not too long):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDnavPiMxA

Also. really great version of strarship trooper from same concert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n81heGR30JY

About Yes lyrics. You can easily laugh at them specially if youīre cynic asshole, who thinks there is no magic in the world. But the Yes world is itīs own, I think itīs same about the music, you just get it or not.

Mortte Jousimo 06.26.2015 12:49 AM

About great drummers I think in this band was greatest Finnish drummer (Ronnie Österberg), just listen the song Colossus little later in this piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrL_PWYGar0

evollove 06.26.2015 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Oh, and Kenny G is not Jazz.


I just wasted about five minutes skimming a bunch of Kenny G. I was trying to find a song that swings, but I couldn't. Not one. Yeah, he does not sound like jazz one bit. The charge of "White people like Kenny G stole jazz" is a bit ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo
About Yes lyrics. You can easily laugh at them specially if youīre cynic asshole, who thinks there is no magic in the world.


Fair enough.

I listened to chunks of Yessongs and at least I can appreciate how others like them.

But weird question: how do you listen to Yes? Is it something you concentrate on or something you play in the background?

PS - I always liked "Roundabout." The 3:30 single edit. Just played it twice in a row.

--

Before I fell asleep, from out of nowhere, I thought, "Tomorrow I'm listening to Rather Ripped."

!@#$%! 06.26.2015 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortte Jousimo
Well, I donīt think Yessongs is poorly recorded. I think itīs one of the best live albums, but really could be even better if there were more songs where Bruford is in drums..


of course, it's a live album, and it's fantastic even without bruford, but some parts of it sound pretty bad, seriously. the stravinsky thing is shrill, the alan white drums sound real muddy in some tracks, etc.

---

thanks for all those links, it's a lot to process and i'll check them out. about union, etc:-- i've always been fearful of post-70s yes because, i don't know, it wasn't yes anymore etc. and i have this notion that with their era over and them wanting to keep with the times the result was poor and just no. but i'll check out union & see what my ears tell me.

also the otehr links-- i'm internet restricted early in the morning so i have to wait for the fast verion to be available. thanks for all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evollove
I listened to chunks of Yessongs and at least I can appreciate how others like them.


the bruford tracks are "perpetual change" and... well, look them up. but if you're starting just approach from these albums first: the yes album, fragile, close to the edge. those 3 are their best period and a good point of reference to judge the rest.

gmku 06.26.2015 11:07 AM

I had to pack up all my albums and CDs. Sniffle, sniffle. The stereo components and speakers, all in boxes, taped shut. Next week they go into a truck. And then...

...they all go into our new digs!

Rob Instigator 06.26.2015 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
big bands don't improvise lots and some survive their founders like mingus or count basie what genre are they?


big bands are arranged more carefully, but they set aside space for soloists to improvise, and the better big bands do improvise within the charts given them by the composer.

Rob Instigator 06.26.2015 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Severian

True, improv is one of the main characteristics of jazz as a whole, but the way you describe it, jazz can't exist without improvisation and an established melody. Polyrhythm and syncopation, swing notes are all equally important parts of the musical profile of jazz. I feel like what you're really talking about is cool jazz, which definitely relies heavily on improvisation over a traditional melody.

Also, I actually think that techno and beat and electronic hip-hop have evolved to the point where real time improvisation, and live manipulation of styles and sounds can be achieved. It's been like this for some time. It's not as modal as it is in jazz, but maybe that's because it's not an evolution of jazz itself, but the influence of jazz touching other former of music entirely.

.


your second point I agree with. The first point however, is a bit off. "cool jazz" is melody based on modal scales, not tonal scales. I did not mean to say that a specific melody had to be followed, but that it was the basis of the improvisation. How to get from note A to note B and do so in a new and never before heard way. Jam bands like Phish and such use such improvisation and so does a lot of latin music, especially stuff like salsa and bossanova, but it is not jazz per se.

Ornette Coleman's early free jazz work consists of the group playing the set melody for about 15 seconds and then going off into free improv of all instruments at once.

Big Bands have everyone keep a set groove and they improv in their individual bits. It depends on whether the jazz is intended as dancing music or listening music. dance music needs to have a set beat and rhythm for the dancers, and jazz/jass originated as dancing music, like the blues.

!@#$%! 06.26.2015 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
big bands are arranged more carefully, but they set aside space for soloists to improvise, and the better big bands do improvise within the charts given them by the composer.


ah i see-- thanks!

i do have a theoretical question though (the type of shit philosophers like to shoot for whatever reason): what happens if the band plays 100% as on paper? even "arranged to sound like improvisation, but not really"? what does it become
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
your second point I agree with. The first point however, is a bit off. "cool jazz" is melody based on modal scales, not tonal scales. I did not mean to say that a specific melody had to be followed, but that it was the basis of the improvisation. How to get from note A to note B and do so in a new and never before heard way. Jam bands like Phish and such use such improvisation and so does a lot of latin music, especially stuff like salsa and bossanova, but it is not jazz per se.

Ornette Coleman's early free jazz work consists of the group playing the set melody for about 15 seconds and then going off into free improv of all instruments at once.

Big Bands have everyone keep a set groove and they improv in their individual bits. It depends on whether the jazz is intended as dancing music or listening music. dance music needs to have a set beat and rhythm for the dancers, and jazz/jass originated as dancing music, like the blues.


dammit, i don't know if you're right or wrong but it's good to read someone who understands and can describe music this way

Rob Instigator 06.26.2015 01:28 PM

i spent about 4 years self-immersing myself in Jazz music, and the whole history of it and it's sonic evolution.

You thought the folkies were upset with Dylan for playing "electric rock n roll?" what I have read about the reactions to Charlie Parker blow that out the water!

where many music forms are based on the beat (ska as opposed to rocksteady as opposed to reggae) or repeated riffs (bluegrass, or blues, or rock n roll), Jazz music is based on the use of musical theory to improvise/compose while playing. This is what blew away Europeans who had never heard Bix Biederbeck or Ellington or people like Lester Young who blew their minds. This composition-on-the-fly is the true genius and originality behind that most American of art forms, Jazz music.


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