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-   -   So Many Opposite-Gendered Humans (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=87130)

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 03:28 PM

So Many Opposite-Gendered Humans
 
If you love studious and strikingly beautiful Human Beings from a nation not your own, the library is for you. Trust me.*

(*edited for semantic paranoia)

Glice 01.28.2013 03:30 PM

Still transphobic.

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 03:34 PM

humans is humans. would it be thatw e were all robots with no sex drives, and no innate attraction to others...

man I was trying so hard not to be transphobic.

!@#$%! 01.28.2013 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
man I was trying so hard not to be transphobic.


20 lashes! :D

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 03:39 PM

I was listening to a lot of Parliament Funkadelic the past few weeks.

That shit's so sexist.

Genteel Death 01.28.2013 03:40 PM

Who pulls in a library anyway? Fucking square.

Glice 01.28.2013 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
humans is humans. would it be thatw e were all robots with no sex drives, and no innate attraction to others...

man I was trying so hard not to be transphobic.


Jesus H. Sex drives are pretty diverse things, y'know? They're also things over which you have responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility and should be taken seriously. Part of the responsibility is in not restricting other people's personal expressions. For instance, rather than attributing apparent and consistently interrogated misogyny to some phantom 'biology', try going 'hey! I've got control over the dangly things! Amazing.' In the same way you could very likely break many people's legs but choose not to, and additionally don't indulge in or perpetuate the language of leg-breaking violence.

Genteel Death 01.28.2013 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Jesus H. Sex drives are pretty diverse things, y'know? They're also things over which you have responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility and should be taken seriously. Part of the responsibility is in not restricting other people's personal expressions. For instance, rather than attributing apparent and consistently interrogated misogyny to some phantom 'biology', try going 'hey! I've got control over the dangly things! Amazing.' In the same way you could very likely break many people's legs but choose not to, and additionally don't indulge in or perpetuate the language of leg-breaking violence.


You are accusing Rob of being a rapist?

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Jesus H. Sex drives are pretty diverse things, y'know? They're also things over which you have responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility and should be taken seriously. Part of the responsibility is in not restricting other people's personal expressions. For instance, rather than attributing apparent and consistently interrogated misogyny to some phantom 'biology', try going 'hey! I've got control over the dangly things! Amazing.' In the same way you could very likely break many people's legs but choose not to, and additionally don't indulge in or perpetuate the language of leg-breaking violence.



I'm an Orthodox Christian, and nobody is more oriented around "responsibility of sexual drives" as us, we're not exactly prudes but we make Catholics seem almost debaucherous in comparison. So I agree completely with you except for this..

Neither Rob nor anyone else here ever suggested that biology exonerates, vindicates, or excuses any form of sexual deviance let alone sexual violence. That was knox hyperbolic libel which got everyone worked up, and yet it was for nothing because nobody ever even suggested such. Biology explains that SOME males of any species are aggresive or even violent. Infanticide and rape are indeed part of the animal world. It doesn't make it natural, ethical, or acceptable, it just makes it reality. The reality is that human males are also animals, and have the same inherent biological mechanisms as other male species. SOME human males are violent and aggressive, period. I BROUGHT UP THIS BIOLOGICAL FACT ON KNOX's TIRADE THREAD TO POINT OUT THAT THE BIOLOGICAL AGGRESSION WE OBSERVE IN NATURE IS NOT JUST POINTED TOWARDS FEMALES, INDEED TO MALES TO. Males are violent to other males, period. THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT. knox was trying to wrongly promote the idea that such male-induced violence is foreign to men, that only women experience violence at the hands of men. She knows that is bullshit. Further, I brought that up to try to show knox that men CAN indeed empathize and relate to womens' experience of violence from men, because men deal with violence too.

Glice 01.28.2013 03:57 PM

Some males are aggressive towards males. Everyone is aggressive towards females. The point is that I get punched about once a year. Twice or more in a particularly bad one. I am present in front of male-directed aggressive behaviour maybe once a month. Possibly more, depending on the thickness of my skin (not very).

Many women - I'd go with most - have to steel themselves against a panoply of fears every time they leave the house.

So yeah, violence is present in 'both' conventionally-understood genders. It's something most men have to keep their wits about them for, sometimes, but can generally wander about without too much trouble. That's a point that knox has made. Several times.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Some males are aggressive towards males. Everyone is aggressive towards females. The point is that I get punched about once a year. Twice or more in a particularly bad one. I am present in front of male-directed aggressive behaviour maybe once a month. Possibly more, depending on the thickness of my skin (not very).

Many women - I'd go with most - have to steel themselves against a panoply of fears every time they leave the house.

So yeah, violence is present in 'both' conventionally-understood genders. It's something most men have to keep their wits about them for, sometimes, but can generally wander about without too much trouble. That's a point that knox has made. Several times.


I am sorry but by your logic, the majority of women are raped or sexually assaulted every day. FEAR of violence and actual violence are two different things, I am not denying or belittling the experience of women, I am just saying that violence perpetuated by men is not exclusively a womens' issue. Further, even when men are violent against women, it is still also a mens' issue as well. Those women are part of communities, part of families, and those families and communities are surely inhabited by men too ;)

Some motherfucker rapes or assaults my sister or nieces, it will surely inspire some biological male aggression on my part in retaliation.

!@#$%! 01.28.2013 04:03 PM

glice, how does rob's expression of his "opposite gender" preferences equate transphobia?

i get it that he's not being inclusive of all forms of desire, probably because it would be daunting to catalog all its forms, but isn't the leap from limited-range to phobia a bit much? i mean-- he's not saying "transgender folk may not experience sexual attraction for anyone at the library."

it's sort of like saying that liking country music (one of the dominant genres in american pop culture) makes you against non-dominant forms of music. and i say this because you like country music (megabusiness) and play microsounds in your violin.

Glice 01.28.2013 04:05 PM

Partly amusement, partly because the idea of opposing genders isn't that cool. You're all horribly wrong, so it's basically bait and counter-bait at this point, and we all get to die at some point. Something to look forward to, eh?

You are all wrong though.

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 04:06 PM

misogyny is the hate of women no?

Misandry is the hate of men.

I am a philogynist.

Glice 01.28.2013 04:07 PM

You're a delusional horror is what you are.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Partly amusement, partly because the idea of opposing genders isn't that cool. You're all horribly wrong, so it's basically bait and counter-bait at this point, and we all get to die at some point. Something to look forward to, eh?

You are all wrong though.


 

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
You're a delusional horror is what you are.


thanks for the psychoanalysis. You are surely the most qualified to judge mental aberrations based solely on tiny, inconsequential snatches of text on a blue screen.

!@#$%! 01.28.2013 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Partly amusement, partly because the idea of opposing genders isn't that cool. You're all horribly wrong, so it's basically bait and counter-bait at this point, and we all get to die at some point. Something to look forward to, eh?

You are all wrong though.


i'm not baiting, i swear-- but your position reminds me of heterosexual people who complain about gay marriage because it "threatens marriage". how the fuck does it do that? it doesn't. one kind of expression of love/desire doesn't threaten another unless it demands to be exclusive of other forms.

Genteel Death 01.28.2013 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glice
Some males are aggressive towards males. Everyone is aggressive towards females. The point is that I get punched about once a year. Twice or more in a particularly bad one. I am present in front of male-directed aggressive behaviour maybe once a month. Possibly more, depending on the thickness of my skin (not very).

Many women - I'd go with most - have to steel themselves against a panoply of fears every time they leave the house.

So yeah, violence is present in 'both' conventionally-understood genders. It's something most men have to keep their wits about them for, sometimes, but can generally wander about without too much trouble. That's a point that knox has made. Several times.


Point was taken here. The aggression with which she treated Rob on that thread I find terribly misguided, particularly because it could have been the start of a discussion on how we direct our feelings, both in a sexual and purely voyeuristic level, on other human beings who we find attractive. Besides, there certainly are situations where appearing ''unconventionally'' gendered will make you scared shitless. Knox tried lecturing ME about that, no wonder I find her a patronising bag of shit-waste to engage in conversation with.

Genteel Death 01.28.2013 04:17 PM

Suchfriends can fuck off though. Rasta is a shit state of mind to be in.

floatingslowly 01.28.2013 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
If you love studious and strikingly beautiful Human Beings from a nation not your own, the library is for you. Trust me.*

(*edited for semantic paranoia)

Implying they'd "love" me back, and by "love", I mean, "try to look up my skirt with mirrored-shoes".

!@#$%! 01.28.2013 04:50 PM

ps (for glice) - upon further thought i get that rob's new title would seem to perpetuate the notion that attraction only happens between members of opposite genders, but does he really go around breaking other people's legs?

floatingslowly 01.28.2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
tiny, inconsequential snatches

vs. giant "sloppy dongs"

I see what you did there.

Rob Instigator 01.28.2013 05:00 PM

You see all.

Genteel Death 01.28.2013 05:00 PM

Let's study each other. From the back our minds. HA!

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Suchfriends can fuck off though. Rasta is a shit state of mind to be in.

 

These gentlemen would like to have a few words with you about your recent comments regarding HIM Haile Selassie I

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 10:35 PM

what is funny is I've been seeing you trolling trying to get knox to diss you for like three days now and she just won't take that twomp bait cappin yo ;)

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 10:56 PM

haha, I don't even know why, but I thought that Flotz posted those comments and he has most definitely been trolling her like crazy. I think she likes him, but does she know he is a robot and not a lesbian feminist?

 

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 01.28.2013 11:31 PM


 

knox 01.29.2013 07:12 AM

At least this is proof of how bothered you were by all the conversation.

I know I can't expect Suchfriends to be honest here, but I never said males aren't violent to other males.

Instead, I did imply that our patriarchal idea of manhood promotes violence.

For anyone who will insist on the biological determinism, I suggest... I don't know, reading?

knox 01.29.2013 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
ps (for glice) - upon further thought i get that rob's new title would seem to perpetuate the notion that attraction only happens between members of opposite genders, but does he really go around breaking other people's legs?


in a way it's kind of worse because if he would break people's legs he'd have to do one at a time and by maintaining this speech he's endorsing and maintaining thousands of years of stigmatization and heteronormativity.

knox 01.29.2013 07:16 AM

also, congratulations on the "lesbian feminist" - in what world is that an insult?
besides, i'm sure flo is a lesbian feminist. <3

Nefeli 01.29.2013 07:17 AM

i m going to post this picture here; i saw it posted somewhere else today.
i would post it in the irrelevant thread and only for not to be misunderstood that it has anything to do with the rape comments here or in the other thread, if there were any. but it is going to get lost in there.

so it has nothing to do with rape comments here
and i m bad for not taking the time to read both threads.



 


the point i want to make with this pic
is smth i wanted to say in the other thread as well, but now this pic helps me.

we dont exactly need feminism for that.
for me it is the way that people should normally think.
its because people are lazy or because it suits them better, not to try and think bit harder. you know, just do a couple of more turns in your thoughts. see more ankles of what you are thinking.
thats why i always welcomed extreme voices for example in politics, even if i might not agree with what their saying; even though it might come against my extremely anti-violent position in all matters.*
because it helps people to shake their minds a bit.


* and since i m honest, dont think for a minute that there arent times when i question this about myself.
i think harder when that happens. (totally irrelevant that now).

knox 01.29.2013 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nefeli
i m going to post this picture here; i saw it posted somewhere else today.
i would post it in the irrelevant thread and only for not to be misunderstood that it has anything to do with the rape comments here or in the other thread, if there were any. but it is going to get lost in there.

so it has nothing to do with rape comments here
and i m bad for not taking the time to read both threads.




 


the point i want to make with this pic
is smth i wanted to say in the other thread as well, but now this pic helps me.

we dont exactly need feminism for that.
for me it is the way that people should normally think.
its because people are lazy or because it suits them better, not to try and think bit harder. you know, just do a couple of more turns in your thoughts. see more ankles of what you are thinking.
thats why i always welcomed extreme voices for example in politics, even if i might not agree with what their saying; even though it might come against my extremely anti-violent position in all matters.*
because it helps people to shake their minds a bit.


* and since i m honest, dont think for a minute that there arent times when i question this about myself.
i think harder when that happens. (totally irrelevant that now).


the fact is, dear, we do need feminism for that.
if you think that's how people should normally think, then you already are a feminist.
and the sad truth is, they don't. not the majority of them.

louder 01.29.2013 07:28 AM

yawn.

A Thousand Threads 01.29.2013 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
in a way it's kind of worse because if he would break people's legs he'd have to do one at a time and by maintaining this speech he's endorsing and maintaining thousands of years of stigmatization and heteronormativity.

Well, but only in a way. What's worse, symptom or disease?
Don't want to sound esoteric, but i'm all for a holistic approach.

Nefeli 01.29.2013 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
the fact is, dear, we do need feminism for that.
if you think that's how people should normally think, then you already are a feminist.
and the sad truth is, they don't. not the majority of them.



yeah what i was concluding up there, is that we need feminism for that, because people dont think harder. or like i said we need various voices to exist, nomatter if we agree or not with them.
and i m a feminist since i can remember myself.
but i was always considering myself humansmth instead, because i m thinking women and men as humans and thats how i express and get through my feminism. its like saying i am a feminist, is like accepting there is an issue by default and then trying to fight for women's rights, whereas i prefer to speak like there isnt an 'issue', because there shouldnt be one.

yeah, not expressing it well.
an example- have said all these before..
the riot girrll thing. i didnt like it called that way. i understand that perhaps there wasnt any other way to be called. however, it made me think that it transmitted further more he idea, that women dont have their place in music world etc.

knox 01.29.2013 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Thousand Threads
Well, but only in a way. What's worse, symptom or disease?
Don't want to sound esoteric, but i'm all for a holistic approach.


I don't know, to be honest.
Legally, you'd look at it one day.
Morally, it'd be a different story.

But of course it's always better to tackle the source of the disease instead of just treating/masking isolated symptoms?

knox 01.29.2013 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nefeli
yeah what i was concluding up there, is that we need feminism for that, because people dont think harder. or like i said we need various voices to exist, nomatter if we agree or not with them.
and i m a feminist since i can remember myself.
but i was always considering myself humansmth instead, because i m thinking women and men as humans and thats how i express and get through my feminism. its like saying i am a feminist, is like accepting there is an issue by default and then trying to fight for women's rights, whereas i prefer to speak like there isnt an 'issue', because there shouldnt be one.

yeah, not expressing it well.
an example- have said all these before..
the riot girrll thing. i didnt like it called that way. i understand that perhaps there wasnt any other way to be called. however, it made me think that it transmitted further more he idea, that women dont have their place in music world etc.


Feminists fight for equality, yeah.
There are very good texts that show how it is impossible to be a humanist without being a feminist.

Pretending an issue is not there never makes it go away and it always seem to give an advantage to whoever is taking advantage of that situation.

I don't think "riot grrrls" called themselves that. I think a patronizing, sexist media did, as they turned it into a commodity for their own amusement.

I have discussed this with Glice many times, but you would have no idea how many people simply assume I don't write music or play instruments just based on my gender. Or people who feel that somehow it's cute to see a woman playing or how many times people compile 'women in music' lists. They also seem to think 'female vocalist' is a genre.... but this is a story for a different thread.

Nefeli 01.29.2013 08:35 AM

i agree with all that.
just to clarify, i m not pretending or avoiding anything.
i speak openly and say what i feel is needed to be said; i just do it without feeling that i have to characterize myself in any way.
i mean, i have met men who have said to me: i m a feminist.
so what?
from the way you will talk, i will understand many things about what you are.
or when people say, i m homosexual friendly.
if you think about it, its ridiculous to say smth like that.
i understand that we say terms, because it saves us time and dont get me wrong i used to call myself out to people a feminist for years, when i was little, i still might do if i have to, i just prefer to do things the way i do now.


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