haaa haaa haaa you're 100% right, there

part of the problem is that hillary had very little positive to offer in her campaign. fear of trump mobilized certain people (me for sure), but it didn't mobilize the white working class voters who used to vote democrat.

in fact, the fearmongering (justified or not) backfired for many. hillary's campaign misunderstood the mood of the country and fucked up. she could have been speaking about fixing the ACA which just had announced a 25% average price increase but didn't. she could have been talking about debt-free college education but would barely mention it in passing. she was supposed to be the democrat that connected with middle america but ran her campaign from brooklyn (lol hipsters).

trump had "make america great again". or "#MAGA"

clinton had... hm... what was the big theme of her campaign? she's not trump/ i'm with her/ first woman president / she's competent and ready / er... no identifiable theme

see more here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...mepage%2Fstory

oh and funny thing, after speaking with obama now trump is talking about fixing not repealing obamacare haaa haa haa haa. look how well-behaved he is now.

this shitshow's hilarious. might not always be but it is right now. laugh while you can, before we're all dead:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/don...-do-1788862854

Re: Fixing the ACA. (Symbols)

Yeah, I wrote damn dear a full board page about this a couple pages back. I think I went a bit overboard. But yes, you're right. Wasted opportunity by HRC. People depend on ACA but suddenly became even MORE wary of it than they already were.

I should have said "fear" or "resentment." Sorry, was writing quickly.

right. hillary was a shit candidate, let's face it. i was against her vs. obama. this time i supported her because it was she or bernie and i think bernie was too pie in the sky to win (he'd have been branded a red) and hillary had presumed appeal to the working class-- but she didn't. she gored herself. liberal elite bla bla bla. had to keep speaking in long complex sentences for fucks sakes.

anyway look at this--- haaa ahaaa haaaahaaaaa

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory

basically obamacare can't be thrown out (i did read your extensive thing about medical billing changes btw) but perhaps the repukes can fix it since they have all branches of government at their disposal

a few things i wouldn't mind seeing:

--competition across state lines. i can't get freelancers union in NM. stupid. destroy the cartels.

--expanded medicaid and guaranteed for the year for those who get it

--option for catastrophic health insurance + HSAs for healthy people (yours truly). after obamacare those became unavailable to me

--some other way to lower costs. don't know what this could be.

I disagree that she was a shit candidate. I think she was a prime hunk of candidate rib, but she allowed herself to be exposed to air for too long and started to color. She didn't run a very good campaign at any point, I'll say that. But I've already made it clear that I've been supportive of HRC since the '90s, and I've voted for her thrice now. I think she's an excellent and competent leader, but she didn't make the right choices and she underestimated within-group class resentment.

In many ways, I think Hillary was the candidate all along, in many people's minds. Where do you go from having a black male president? "Pie-in-the-Sky" logic dictates that you go one step further, to a female president. Many MANY people wanted to see this happen (or at least claimed to), and over the past 8 years I've asked a number of folks who they thought was a logical choice to fill this role. Hillary Clinton was the only name I heard in response until recently (couple mentioned Warren).

What could she have done differently? Aside from what I've outline already?
She and Bernie both could have handled the primaries differently. I was worried a year ago at the level of animosity between Democrat factions in the early days. It presented us as a fractured, weak party. It also made vying for the presidency look like a power grab, turned attention away from the voters and what they wanted. Made Dems look Republican. Bernie didn't help this. Not a bit.

If either one of them had stopped to look at the big picture and consider what was best for the party, they would have been in this together right out of the gate. Bernie as a VP pick sounded silly to so many, but it actually would have made the most sense from a demographic perspective. Would have perhaps resored a bit of legitimacy to the DNC process.

But ultimately, the odds were always against the Dems. Statistically, historically, and nobody--NOBODY should have ever assumed that Hillary would win, and acted based on that assumption.

by "she wasn't a good candidate" i didn't mean that she wasn't a good potential president.

i mean that she wasn't a good candidate. she never won the love of the people the way that obama or bernie sanders did.

and she was a terrible communicator. TERRIBLE. listen to her with the ears of your average TV audience. forget for a moment your egghead self and pretend you drive a dump truck for a living and listen to any of her speeches. it's like hearing the adults in charlie brown speak.

and she rarely spoke frankly and directly or from the heart.

e.g., whenever she was confronted with the emails, for example, she'd break into cautious legalistic sentences instead of saying "im sorry if fucked up, i'll do better" or something.

sure she's a smart person, but not smart enough i guess to realize she had to come across as less cerebral, more passionate and decisive, not a hedger.

voters wanted change and she offered a lot of dependent clauses.

could have said something like:

"i will fix obamacare"

but instead said stuff like "the ACA has been a good policy that has brought many people to the ranks of the insured and has made possible the expansion of health care..." etc etc

"i will fix obamacare. more competition to drive the price down." but jeez, it's like, competition is a dirty word for some democrats.

also could have said:

"i will make college debt-free for the middle class"

but instead she'd say "many students today are struggling with student debt while lenders charge 10%, 12%, 14%.... " and eventually "no debt for anybody making under $250,000 a year"

that's shit that you put on a website not stuff that gets people on fire

like her campaign could have been... i don;t know. something

remember obama? "help is on the way" he'd do a call and response. "help is on the way".

what was hillary's mantra? nobody can tell you. forget the primaries, she could have launched a labor revolution if she had so chosen. instead all she offered were attacks-- attacks on wall street, attacks on trump, attacks on millionaires.

suchfriends for all his stubborn self-assurance was right in that she wasn't presenting a positive reason to vote for her. and we did the same here-- not "hillary is great" but "oh no how can you vote for a racist egomaniac"

--

anyway here more eye-openers. including the mexican immigrant truck driver who voted for trump to save his job:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...2d1_story.html

at the debate, instead of saying "you're lying" and say why she'd say

"go to hillaryclinton.com where fact checkers are working to debunk..."

see, "hillaryclinton.com" is not as powerful as saying "you're lying, this is why"

too cerebral and too negative at the same time. sorry. what was most exciting about her was that she wasn't trump. i said it way early here and i'm still saying it today.

lastly-- launching on a tirade against guns is preaching to the choir. every time democrats go after guns they fucking lose.

instead of saying "ban on assault weapons" which is a) bullshit, because assault weapons is a fake label for varmint rifles, and b) sounds like an excuse to ban all weapons.

democrats should be saying

"let's keep guns off the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill"

"we have to keep guns off the hands of terrorists and the mentally ill"

with that, you pass universal background checks and close the "gun show loophole". score a solid victory, worry about fakely named guns later.

why do democrats have to be such ineffectual eggheads. yes, you have the liberal elites already, you have to go after everyone else, and speak in SIMPLE AND COMPELLING TERMS. and preferrably with the truth so that shit doesn't have to blow back in your face.

I agree with pretty much everything you're putting down here, but I think your underestimating how quickly ANY gun talk that isn't overtly pro-gun gets muddied in the minds of people from, oh, say... Wisconsin and Michigan. There are as many single issue gun voters as single issue abortion voters, and like the pro-lifers, any opinion that isn't very clearly in agreement is considered direct opposition.

But yes about the eggheads.

Hillary's mantra was "Stronger, together" ... or at least that was her slogan. Not sure anyone actually knows what it specifically means, but hey... "Forward" worked in '12. *shrug*

Speaking of that, though... did anyone else read the myriad articles implying or stating outright that Obama was Hillary's "secret weapon?"

Really, there was a great deal of "Don't worry, HRC has the Obama army behind her!"

And she piggy-backed off of his reputation all the way. Even down to the design of her campaign fliers and graphics. Problem is, the Obama "army" -- that teaming mass of people who were crying (good tears!) for Obama in '08 -- is functionally non-existent at this point. Obama spent his White House tenure playing it safe the first time around, and attempting to govern like a guy who was going to be indisputably replaced by a Republican the second time around. He alienated millions and millions of people.

But Jesus Christ. As a PART of that throng of weepy idealists in '08, I was SO full of hope about the future. I do think the last 8 years brought about a renewed emphasis on "Black excellence" and pride, even though Obama "failed" in a number of ways. Now... to see all those people flipping out and LITERALLY DEFECTING ON TRUMP SIGNS is utterly disturbing.

My grandmother died shortly after Obama took office. About 18 months I guess. She said she would die happy if she could see a Democrat in the White House (man she hated Bush, and Bush and Reagan). Seeing a black man take the presidency brought her to tears. When I received my commemorative Obama plate (yes, plate.. I have a commemorative Obama plate.. ha ha) for my donations, I had it mounted for her, next to a framed "Yes We Did" card. She loved it and she was not a sentimental woman.

I think about that stuff now and it makes me crazy. I know it's absurd to get so emotionally attached to a political event, but my grandmother was, and she lived just long enough to see it happen, and she died with a smile.

I feel like Trump has pissed on her grave, as insane as that sounds.

And now that I've said that, I'm going to write myself a note to make an appointment with a therapist first thing Monday morning because I'm clearly losing it.

just got some quick replies cuz i gotta get off the internet for the night (its saturday ffksakes)

i'm sure your grandmother was a fine person and you're rightly proud of her but i don't think she'd want you to go bananas in her name. i'm pretty sure she was a lot wiser than that.

best luck with the therapist. and to reiterate that defense mechanisms can be good and healthy. level IV or "mature" defense mechanisms are things such as: acceptance, courage, tolerance, sublimation, altruism, supression, humor, etc. aka coping skills. then there's the crazy/maladaptive ones levels I-III which you can discard. denial, etc-- toss.

the rest of this chat ("stronger together" etc) we can pick up in the morning or some other day because it's not really the important stuff.

the important stuff right now is coping/learning to cope. defense mechanisms level IV activate. be well.

--
ETA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defe...evel_4:_Mature

Thanks for the reading and advice. I appreciate it. Wish I'd taken more clinical psych classes now. Oh well. Onward.

I stupidly await apologies from people who blame the election on my 3rd party voting when you have a butt-fuck ton of others who didn't vote at all, butthurt Bernies voting 3rd party in protest of Clinton despite having nothing in common with 3rd party candidates, or wrote in that dead gorilla, Deez Nuts, or anyone else not legitimately on the ballot. They deserve a lot more credit for the ton of shit we're in than I do.

the fact that she even ran tells you a lot about how seriously she takes democracy. words like dynasty and oligarchy mean little to her.

and now shes blaming coney

hasnt learned a fucking thing

bye bye hilary! they came they saw and you...

but you're in deep-red south dakota, which was never gonna go for clinton. why are you to blame? it makes no sense.


i felt the dynasty argument on her first run, and used it against her here, but after her stint as sec. of state i felt that she had proven her merits. she left the post well respected, admired, beloved even--- but while women are often admired for their service they are also often punished for their ambition--unlike men who are applauded for it. so she was punished for it. severian is right that the primaries were damaging to her--she emerged from them as lady macbeth, for many. and comey absolutely took the wind from her sails.

she lost the narrative and the voters long before the coney thing

she has yet to acknowledge her betrayal of sanders, of the dem base, and of the prog media. she refused to appear on tyt. shes done and unless lessons are learned, the dems are largely done.

we passed through a very important moment here. noone believes in the liberal establishment anymore. it can no longer defeat the left electorally in the name of centrist realism. happened in the uk too.

it was a very long slog and you win or lose on points. the thing about sanders wasn't necessarily a betrayal. it was damaging to her, but if sanders position is that the dems had betrayed the working class that was where his loyalty was due first--not to a person but to a cause. he did support her in the general though.

comey definitely deflated her budding popularity post-debates as she was picking up steam. she was suddenly likeable next to that bully. but like a soufflée, timing was everything. comey shot her at a decisive moment. that shit was malicious.

the thing is like ive been saying all along (often to suchfriedns, or to berniebros) the democratic party is not a monolith. it has wings, factions, caucuses, etc. the defeat of hillary is not the end of the democratic party--only of its establishment. for now.

but i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the liberal establishment or centrism. right now people are riled up, sure, but in 2 or 4 years we might be very well yearning for a return to it, suffering from populist fatigue. right now, sure, it's the time for populists. but these currents never totally go away. the neocons for example, who took over us foreign policy under reagan, waited 12 years in the wilderness for dubya.

there really is no future in isolationism. this is just a temporary intifada. the world will integrate by the laws of physics though, not by the elders of zion or any other nonsense. can't put the cat back in the bag. i do see a future with open borders.

yep, the one thing the neo right cant stop is globalization, they can only whine, kick, murder, self sabotage and fight in endless futility against it, like the morons they are.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to !@#$%! again.

I disagree. She communicated clearly and and was rejected. Quite a number of americans don't want to pay for more and more immigrants.

I believe it was the Trannie First agenda that did it. Trannies are just too strange for many americans. "They" went too far trying to bully everyone into their transexual agenda. Most americans aren't too worried about gays, they may be prejudiced but they will not get too upset about it, but having the trannies forced on them pushed them over the edge.

Can't say I'm a fan of your tone here. But you don't need me to be a fan of your tone and I get that. But what Symbpls said about ambition needs to be taken extremely seriously. Hillary Clinton has gobs of it, and like many women, she is expected to hide it or apologize for it. Trump is the very picture of misdirected ambition, and -- strangely -- that's the one thing that his supporters felt "qualified" him to be president. His raw, shameless, uncontainable and undeserved conviction in himself. Hillary actually displayed something very similar, and the same people who argued that this quality was the one thing that made Trump a suitable candidate (and many who hated Trump), are saying that it's the very thing that makes HRC "corrupt" and "evil."

Essentially this serves as something of a microcosm of gender relations in the workplace. Women are picking up steam in education, becoming more credentialed and certified and so on than men on the whole, but when vying for jobs they are widely -- still, in 2016-- less valued than men.

Men are still more likely to be given employment over women of equal qualification. This was the biggest job opening in the world. Why would this be any different?

Also, because it's going to take the political scientists and statistitoons some time to retread the data and figure out what exactly went wrong and when it happened, I don't think you can say Comey didn't play a part in this. He placed a seed of doubt in the hearts of voters everywhere one week before the election, and I know several people who decided to vote Stein or abstain just days before T-Day. What he did has been defended by right wing congressmen, claiming he was doing his job, presented with an "impossible choice" and so on, yet his job was to reveal new relevant evidence about the candidate if it came up, and we all know that's not what he did. He gave us a red herring at an extremely calculated time, and I'd say he deserves to be investigated on federal criminal charges and interfering with an election.

For now, with what we know, Comey was the back-breaking straw.

And yet Bernie's supporters are almost 100% pro-transgender rights legislation, and he "would have won" :eek:

i disagree with hillary's communication skills. she talks like a lawyer and makes simple ideas complicated.

about the "trannie first" agenda as you call it-- i get that the mainstream is prone to phobias and sexual panics, but this is an issue of civil rights. gay is now mainstream so transgender is the new outsider. shouldn't be. why so afraid?

the problem however is that liberals with their idealism and indiscipline should have focused on the issues that could unify the country-- namely, how to prosper in a global economy. for which the key is not scapegoating immigrants (or wall street) but EDUCATION AND JOB RETRAINING. which is how you attract advanced industry.

democrats gave up on being the party of the working class though and your complain illustrates this. they're the party of women and minorities and all the little tribes that aren't white men. this is a broken strategy at this juncture. enough with the splintered causes-- it's time to get back to class issues.

ETA: and re: transgender rights-- instead of getting involved in arguing gender theory with the masses who are worried about their jobs, all you need to say to guarantee transgender rights without losing the culture war is:

WE BELIEVE IN EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS

period. nobody can argue against that. and instead of getting stuck arguing divisive issues you actually do things that matter.

sorry, but gender essentialism is being destroyed by hyper industrial commodification which has reduced every material aspect of the gender binary to hot-swappable components. sorry. this is not going away. please continue to whine and lash out until the robots sterilise and murder you. you stupid fucking cunt.

there is no "gender theory" here. You simply are unable to accept that other people have different viewpoints than you. You totally avoid my point.

i'm not trying to avoid your point. i'm trying to skirt around the issue that you're projecting your sex problems onto a whole class of citizens.

i mean between your obsession with pornography and child rape, your fear of "satanic tits", your prurient interests in people's "jerkoff worlds", now you're saying that you voted for trump over bathrooms?

originally trump said this was a non-issue. i don't know what he told you afterwards that made you a believer. maybe hearing him say he grabs women by the pussy made you feel safely in the hands of a straight male.

but anyway, yes, gender theory. college kids get it, the uneducated don't. don't push gender theory to the masses is what i'm saying, just give everyone equal rights.

are you against equal rights, fascist?

fascist.

Haaaaa!!!!

There is no bigger bully on this forum than you. You love calling people names and projecting your own pathology onto everyone else. You are unable to have a discussion with people you've never met, you're really a Soros lapdog, and since your argument is shit, you just try and shut people down with your name calling.

You really should go back to analyzing katy perry's large breasts, because that seems to be about your speed.

You wonder why Hilary lost, just read what you wrote below. Your arrogance and bullying behavior seems to be quite typical of the clinton losers this year.

You like that expression 'jerkoff worlds' don't you, you've repeated it a few times in other threads!

Are you indexing my posts?

I know this doesn't really matter, and is probably not worth bringing up, but tesla69 is making these arguments on a sonic youth forum. I doubt there is a single fan base for a non-LGBTQ band or musician that is less likely to overlap with transphobics.

Is it possible that tesla's just saying shit to stir the pot here?
Of course, just being SY fans doesn't mean we're all liberals, but social awareness is a political foundation of Sonic Youth's music and cultural presence. I'm having a hard time believing that even one SY fan who likes the band enough to spend time on a message board devoted to them would vote Trump.

I don't think Symbols is "wondering why Hillary lost." Indeed I believe he has pinpointed a host of reasons for this outcome.

Also, maybe he's forceful at times, maybe he's even, in your mind, a "bully." But if he's bullying anyone, it's outspoken supporters of the nation's biggest... bully.

Maybe if you re-read your "trannies first" post you'd see why you got this response.

i have an ok brain so i remember what you said 3 pages ago, suprisingly, without the help of Master S.O.R.O.S.-I or the NSA or the elders of zion. it's not hard to remember what one read last week. and the yahoo cabal of pornographers has been on your signature since the dawn of time. plus to you everyone is a pedophile.

besides, some things you say are so ridiculous and absurd they're highly memorable. "katy perry's satanic tits" could actually be a hilarious meme if you didn't take it as literally as you appear to do.

anyway i won't bully your convictions anymore by doing such outrageous acts as reading what you just wrote. i might notice the incoherences and then point them out and the horror the horror.

if you hate "trannies," and "colored youths" who look your way at the bodega--why did you ever move to new york from ye olde farm?

a century ago your ancestors were immigrating by the millions without border control and were subjected to the same vilification as mexicans and muslims today though. ethnic/linguistic/religious etc. in other words, your great-great-grandpappy would be a syrian today.

check this fun stuff, among many others

http://www.ushistory.org/us/25f.asp (sorry for the very basic text, i was looking by one from pew research but i've lost it. let this just be a reminder of history though)

as for immigrant labor used by capital to undercut domestic wages-- there hasn't been a time when it hasn't happened. look at how the railroad was built.

but anyway, this is not to say that i'm for the exploitation of workers or for lawlessness or for anarchy-- but let's start seeing things from the point of view that we all came out of africa and migration has always been a fact of life. it's best to regulate and normalize and manage rationally than to pretend it can be stopped or assume that it's good to stop it. a free market of matter and energy and information only makes sense with a free market of labor as well. let the talent and the muscle go where it's most needed, but let's do it within a frame of justice and fairness.

besides, the future of the internet might make traveling moot. there's this really cool low-budget scifi movie i forget teh name, but it shows mexican workers in the border operating construction robots in the us while they fry their brains with the interface. what's the name of it... i'll post if i remember

^^ oh, I think I've seen it actually... this sci-fi film you're talking about. I think that imagery has been used a few times actually, in television as well as film. But I'm spacing on the name too.

george soros told me i could sup from katy perrys satanic tits if only i spread more pro tolerance memes and aborted more babies

they tasted like sauerkraut let me tell you, full of good bacteria im sure but tangy af. those aborted babies sure do fill you up.

oh well, thats what you get when you chose evil, unlike those good anti semites and truthers on teslas side

SLEEP DEALER!!

cheaply made,but imaginative cyberpunk of the border. i liked it.

Rude Pundit:

The planets have aligned for Trump - the hatred of the black president, the hatred of the woman who dared to try to take his place, the hatred of everyone who made the country less white and more tolerant. Trump has risen and he will eclipse the light over the country, making it a cold, desolate place.

tesla will be appointed sex kommissar in his building, and will perform random bedroom checks to make sure there are no immigrant "trannies" hiding in closets, or women pissing while standing up. white members only. by extreme vetting (physical inspection). all tits will be exorcised. mandatory mastectomies to cast the devil out.

tits will be checked to see if they float (satanic) or sink (ok tits)

we'll needa eat a whole lotta dead babies if we're gonna have the energy to judge all them tittays