Sonic youth fan accidentally reaches meeting bodhisattva vow : )
 

Hi!! : ) This is my entry in the sonik life sort of sonic youth related/music and art related partial and joyful culmination of life! It isn't exactly straightforward but not too complicated compared to what must be the glorious timelessnesses of many sonic youth and grateful dead fan collective consciousness oddyseys!
I am a person like many who feel that nature / consciousness for me aligns to being a bodhisattva. i have been on sort of a long term trance that has led me through discovering music and language, trying to understand what is actually happening in life, what is the future, who are we? discovering and loving sonic youth art and music and travelling through a peculiar, simple, and eventually astonishingly paranormal yet still gently awkward existence. :)

My individual sort of completion of bodhisattva nature is to provide that the word "me" describes all beings that have ever existed. in some cases human language and tradition has lost or not noticed ways in which "me" is basically the pi number of each language. :) Me is a word that can be expressed for fun, experiment, healing, practice, in spoken language/other language in place of other words used in place of me including the language equivalent of "i" or "my" and with it creates a deep sense of boundlessness of being, as well as the linguistic logic to remember that the word "me" basically contains a simple type of stargate/dimensional opening to all beings when used in language.

I'm not sure yet where or how to share this, but, i know that many people here know about the bodhisattva vow and also just poems, language, music, art, and consciousness. :) Finding out that the word "me" in language has a secret or hidden positive potential for everyone to be in some ways much more free as beings (to be what me truly is!!) is pretty abstract but i am honored and excited to share with everyone!

very interesting.....

The Universe is infinite.
There is no center
There is no edge
we are born of the Universe
we die into the Universe
we are never outside the Universe
there is no god......

but that doesn't mean there is no Creator -

reality is simply perception - and consciousness isn't limited to the placement of your skull.

there is no creator. fact.

I was talking about this with my wife last night.

I have been reading a TON about the history of religions and gods and the development of deities throughout recorded history.
Most all religions reach a place where the philosophers detach the deity from the personal day to day life of humanity and the world, and label the deity (whether Zeus, Yahweh, Allah, Mithra, Ahura Mazda, etc) as the ALL, the unknowable whole.

this sometimes results in backlash from the devout, because they like their personal gods, interacting and receiving prayers and rituals and such. If it does not then the gods die because they are useless to the day to day lives of men.

Buddhists do not believe in any creator or god or supreme being. They do not have to worry about pleasing a deity or waiting for a "reward" after a life lived a certain way.

If there is a creator to the Universe, then that creator entity is not one we can ever know, or even begin to approximate. we may as well act as if it is not there.

my advice to anyone on the bodhisattva path is "careful!".

as far as Bodhisattva's go, it is all filigree and embellishment to the true teachings of the one called Buddha. he never claimed divinity. he never claimed that he lived past lives as a Boddhisattva. all those concepts were created by the followers of Buddhism in the centuries after the Buddha's death. It is all non-sense basically to appeal to the masses who demand a personal god or personal beings to pray to to interact with the universe for our sake.

Just like early Christians who instead of seeing Jesus for what he was, a reformer, claimed him to be the actual incarnation of god, creating the trinity problem which Mohammed thought was so fucking stupid on the part of the Christians.

a bodhisattva is one who attains enlightenment but choses to turn back to his fellows to spread teachings, out of a sense of compassion.

if you understand enlightenment as a supernatural state then it sounds like embellishment.

but it is also a perfectly cogent use of the term if you understand it symbolically. since enlightenment is in fact the default state for all entities - human and non human, and attaining it is not difficult, it is possible to be a bodhisatva today. the author of that link is an example of one.

but it depends on what teachings you chose to bring back and offer the world, and if they are accepted, understood or misunderstood.

rocky offers us "me" as something like a mantra that reveals the interdependence of all sentient beings, and their potential to access a boundless sense of freedom. a kind of affirmation in which the self identifies with a linguistic code.

-

you are correct about how problematic the term bodhisattva can be, since its a rare instance in which buddhism sadly incorporates concepts of an omnipotent god. i'd just point out that this is the exception rather than the rule, and that it is in no way canonical or common.

jesus might have been a reformer, but he was also convinced the world was ending within his lifetime.

the path of the buddha is difficult and fraught with danger.

the western schools are corrupt, greedy money scams and subservience to capitalism. false teachings preaching quietude and conformity, (and of course the wise ones have to get their cut)...

it's a long way to central dogma and colonel katsuragi is on the intercom suggesting you're better off surrendering than engaging the enemy.

even if you can make it there without going down or going mad, are you prepared for what you might find?

when the doctrines which cannot be revealed are finally spoken by the master, or the foolish/brave independent student stumbles across them by accident, will you have the necessary understanding and fortitude to avoid falling into ummatta?

better turn back, this corridor is blocked off with bakelite... you hurry off back the way you came until you hear the echoes of gunshots coming closer and closer... you're alone now, surrounded by enemies. you cannot speak out loud lest they hear you...

you overhear the enemies communications on your radio, "retreat, this area has been targeted for demolition". one of the lifts might still be operative, are you REALLY prepared to keep going and discover what NERV has been working on? what exactly is it that you think you'll find down there anyway? and if you get down there, how can you make it back to the surface in time... where even more soldiers are lying in wait... you still want to push ahead? i ask again, what is it you expect to find down there?

your own rotting corpse smiling back at you? or something much worse...

the definition of a Bodhisattva is fine and dandy, and it is what it is, but the subsequent expansion of the Buddhist idea into theology has turned them into venerated saints capable of interacting with us and on behalf of us, which is not the intent of the original Buddhist thought.

exactly. but we can ignore it and sweep it under the carpet.

all the important texts are there and it doesn't detract from that. there has been as much bullshit to happen associated with buddhism as with any other religion. that's humanity for ya.

See, I'm not sure "the Creator" and the Supreme Being are the necessarily same...aaah to return the universe of undifferentiated plasma

You guys are cute. Always love the cuteness of spiritual nihilism ;)

you seem quite threatened by it actually

please dont call me a spiritualist

I'm puzzled by what you mean by this. :-)

Nihilism is the belief that current social and political structures are so corrupt they must be utterly destroyed without any plan to their replacement - the idea being we are also absolutely corrupt and any plan we might have would also be absolutely corrupt.

I can't quite click on what the 2 words together mean...its early...

If an intelligent non-corporeal entity created the whole of existance, and set it up so it would be favorable to life, hopefully leading to self-conscious life, would not that creator entity have set up some way for those who achieve sentience to "contact" or "commune" with it?

In all the reading I have done, no matter what the religious details, most of the deep thinkers of those beliefs state that death is likely to be the elimination of your "self-identity" as an "individual" consciousness, when you merge with the One/Prime Source of all. Supposedly this is the choice that the Buddha made, NOT to join up with eternity and instead to stay in our plane of existence to help others reach that joining.

The "self" is obliterated at the moment of illumination/nirvana/heaven etc. if this is true, and most all mystics seem to think this is what happens, then the "aftelife" is nothing like what is taught by religions, and instead is more like the dissipation of our tiny consciousness into the vast eternal wellspring of all consciousness. Like a drop of water joining an ocean, it is no longer definable as a drop.

heavy stuff

spiritual nihilist would be the opposite of a spiritualist wouldn't it?

you're right.

i just have a bad reaction to the "s" word, its a reflex.

we're gonna fucks you ups Lebowski

Rob, religions don't teach of ANY particular details about the experience of the Afterlife in the concrete sense. It is unknowable. Also, if there is a God(s) capable of creating and sustaining 13.4 BILLION years of Multiverse as well as the potentiality of 11 simultaneous, interacting dimensions, how could our limited, mortal, human minds even remotely speak this God(s) language? Shit, I can't even understand the corny engineering jokes my younger engineering program college students share on our sunday school facebook page! How could I fathom the mind of God? Only if this entity decides on His own account to reveal Him/Her/Itself to us.. and even then? Would I be paying attention?

The major problem with most peoples' perception of religion in our contemporary world is as a superstitious speculation on the afterlife. that is NOT religion. Religion is a system of beliefs and cultural patterns to help make sense of and navigate this very complex world of relationships and human interactions with other humans/nature in the present tense. Theology is to concede at its core that (a) the future doesn't yet exist and (b) the past has already happened so we ONLY TRULY EXIST IN THE PRESENT MOMENT. Yet, the human brain is in essence a computer, it can measure, and take measurements very accurately. The problem with measuring is it doesn't work well in the present tense. The brain is always trying to ignore the present moment, and focus on either its fears/fantasies of the future or its memories/regrets of the past. In the realm of the mind (future and past) the brain is God, whereas in the present moment? The brain is absolutely powerless..

that is very NOT true. the Catholics have Heaven, Hell and Purgatory with very specific deets about each.

The Hebrews have very specific details about what Sheol will be like

The Zoroastrians did, the Muslims do, the Hindus do, the protestant Christians Most DEF do.

The Buddhists do not, and the Shinto religion of Japan does not, but they do not believe in an afterlife or any true "supernatural" life. divinity to them is in each of us.

The Mormon faith specifically dictates what the final afterlife is like. (planets!)

The Catholics do NOT teach the concrete details of the future. The very premise of the "Last Judgment" is that Catholics DON'T KNOW for sure what will be the outcome, and this in turn is intended to motivate Catholics into a deep reflection about how to better appreciate and navigate THIS life in the present tense, because we can't positively affect the Last Judgment, but if we live recklessly, selfishly, we can surely negatively tip the scales.

Orthodox Hebraism as reflected in the Torah and the Prophets does NOT speculate about the Afterlife. "Sheol" is simply a place of death, like a cosmic waiting room. In fact, the Hebrew authors described Sheol in very nihilistic terms of nothingness, the absence of life, the negation of opportunity to experience God(s). Again as with the Catholics, this nihilistic sense of Death is intended to add stronger emphasis on THE PRESENT LIFE, not the future, because in Hebrew thought Death is an absence of God, where Life is the only opportunity to build that relationship and seek the liberating freedom of Grace.

The Muslims? Well they got A LOT of shit mixed up, but the 70 virgins in Paradise is NOT what we could call "orthodox" in any sense, rather, it is about as disorganized superstition as exists in those nudists Baptist churches in West Virgina or the late Westboro folks.. Superstitious speculation about the future that is not supported by an exegesis of the Sacred Texts or the Holy Traditions is NOT religion, it is by definition HERESY.

As to the Mystery cults you mentioned, well, interesting to note, while they did focus on superstitious speculation on the future and the Afterlife, notice they didn't spend enough time cultivating a working system to navigate and survive the present world, and so their "religions" are no longer active or existent..

You're busy skimming the surface of shallow arguments, and straw men at that. Theology is about diving into the murky depths..

Again, the conclusion of Theology is (a) the future (including any speculation about the Afterlife) doesn't yet exist and (b) the past has already happened, so we only exist in and have the present moment to focus on.

you can play the game of "but thats not true religion" and of course there are higher aspects and more refined thinking.

but for me, religion was being TOLD that there is a god and a devil who literally exist. you don't get to discuss when you are being told about this, you are interrogated with questions that ask you to regurgitate the lies you've just been told. if you cough or say the wrong thing, then expect to be subject to humiliation. if you say you're atheist be prepared to be bullied.

you are told, very specifically, what the afterlife is. even though it doesnt make sense and is based on lies, you are told it is real. you are told that science proves the bible based on whatever fallacious concoction of bullshit the idiots 'teaching' you have heard from their church. you are not allowed to know about other religions. you can ask but you won't be told about them.

this is my experience growing up in a hardcore protestant country.

the christians here LITERALLY believe in witches and the "dark arts". they think these satanic demons are lurking around every corner of this country. that's what they tell you - with no sense that its metaphorical.

christofascist bumpkins, fundie authoritarian scum, they run this country. liberals are the minority, in government and everywhere else.

True, hence why I'm playing ;)


Exactly, but as with your wise words posted about about being careful on the Bodhisattva path and about how the Texts are preserved while many of the current permutations of the "religion" are inherently corrupted, the religion you experienced was NOT what the Texts/Traditions originally taught or continue teach..


Again, the question is WHO told you these very specifics? Its not in the Bible. Its not in the Canons. Its not in the Patristics. Its not in the Commentaries. Its not in the Prayer books or the Missals. Its ONLY in the superstitions popularly ascribed as being religion and yet which are not supported by an exegesis of the Texts, cultures, or canonized Tradition.

But like Lavar always said, "You don't have to take my word for it."

those experiences and the continued abuse, violence and authoritarian quasi fascist religiosity that runs and ruins this country (it literally keeps the schools divided and furthers the agenda of the terrorists on each side, and also cleanses their souls and pardons them when they murder people) DISGUSTS ME and i have a bad reaction to any kind of christianity. as far as im concerned, christianity has failed and i cannot make excuses for it!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dead_battery again.

I'm equally disgusted by it as you are and will equally not make excuses for such blatant corruption and moral hypocrisy. These complicated realities all the more make life feel like a tool song sometimes.. one long cosmic groaning.. However, surely we are all grown up enough to be able sort out the difference between the baby and the bathwater here ;)

Pascal's Wager will always stand as a canker sore of Truth..

i dont see any benefit in believing in god, at least not in 2014. we have to move beyond this idea, even for the sake of the delusion we call morality.

what also disgusted me was the attitude of the liberals and sane people, who either accepted christianity totally or made excuses for it. what is so utterly nightmarish is the fact that in this country, anyone who could go beyond the fundie fascism is too afraid to do anything but lapse into a kind of hedonism. a kind of bad faith attitude of "oh well, all we can do is enjoy ourselves because there's probably no god."

i mean come on, there's definitely no god, but we can do a lot more than enjoy ourselves as commiseration for this stupid fucking delusion of omnipotence which is pretty useless in the first place.

i wish people had the courage to move beyond what is essentially - as suchfriends points out - a heretical version of religion. but they all seem to feel a deep guilt when they work out its not real, as if KNOWING THIS is a sad thing, because they've somehow corrupted the potential of humanities good intentions with their sinful knowledge.

I feel you. However, you're not being scientific about it. Agnosticism is much more realistic an approach than atheism. Atheism is as religiously a matter of blind faith as religion, both are not able to be proven by any kind of substantive evidence, rather are experiential philosophies.. I believe in God not as a matter of principle, but out of my own personal experience. I respect those like yourself who don't share that experience, but dead_battery, if you're caustic to those who you disagree with then you're no better or different than the self-righteous hypocrites you're condemning.

In other words, its like my Grandmomz taught me rest her soul, "I'd complain but I don't think it'd do me any good." Be nice about it, which more or less you have been lately, and I sincerely respect and appreciate that by the way ;)

the injunction to be nice and debate people over things which are DELUSIONAL is not acceptable to me.

there is NOTHING realistic about theism. atheism is NOT blind faith no matter how desperately religious apologists want to knock it down to their level.

atheism is not enough for me because it still beleives that belief matters. i am a non theist, insofar as i even need a term. there is no god, no evidence for god, and until some arrives (which it never will) there is nothing reasonable about even entertaining the idea that we should even CARE about this concept.

i wont get into another circular argument. i dont believe your experience offers any evidence of god. mine certainly has had moments that felt like mystical divinity was present, but this can be explained and understood a lot better without recourse to a term which reeks of humanities worship of patriarchal supernaturalism.

But here is ontological fly in your ointment. If you sincerely believe the people are you chatting with are deluded, then how exactly will you ever convince them? Better too just nod politely and carry on elsewhere..


Again, there is a contradiction in your ontology here.. The premise of science is that no knowledge is concrete, understand evolves and changes over time as we experience more of the Universe. Science is ALWAYS open for new discovers, where as stubborn atheism limits this process of discovery.


I can respect your nihilism, its seems reasonable all things considering, and I will be the absolute first to concede the reality that God is more improbable than not, but then again, that is kind of the point of God in the first place right? An unrealistic and improbable entity..


I'm not arguing anything, just sharing or relating my differing perspective as part of our dialogue. If you want to have a close-minded, one-sided, tyrannical conversation, well, that is both unscientific, immoral, and unfriendly, and its precisely the approach of those smug, self-righteous hypocrites you so scornfully despise. In other words, you're becoming the very thing you hate. Hence why I said, "Play nice with the other children.."

In South Central we got a saying, "It is what it is."

you've done this before, trying to alter the facts of science by shifting it to just a manifestation of human discourses, thus bypassing the reality that it describes. a reality in which there is definitely no god.

i dont see myself as convincing anyone of anything, its delusions all the way down, including ME.

i won't be drawn into a 'debate' based on the premise that god could even exist, because he could not, does not, and never will.

science will never discover god, because there is none. you also know this.

end of conversation.

Science used to say the sun orbited the earth, and that disease was a mystery. Things change. I'm not arguing with you. I don't think I can convince you anything in particular, nor am I even interested. We're just having a conversation. I'm interested in and respect your perspective, but such has to be to a degree mutual, otherwise again, you're just being the very bully you condemn Christians of being. I'm NOT those people you despise and you surely have taken notice of that after all these years. I never dismiss what you say, I take it ALL into thoughtful consideration as friends should. We will be bound to have different opinions and feelings about a lot of things in life, but so long as we're nice to each other about it, then we can grow and learn from each other. If we're just dicks, well, folks are just going to get poked, because that is what dicks do, they poke things..

I self-classify as an anti-theist, as in I am personally against theistic belief, and feel that the ills of humanity for the most part are caused by the wars and battles to determine whose theistic beliefs are best.

There is a very big difference between the statement "I think there are no gods," and the statement "There IS no God"

and the opposite holds true. There is a big difference in teh statement "i feel that there is a consciousness greater than us." and "i know that my god is real"

then lets not have conversations that go round in circles over things we've already argued about. the truth is i dont have anything to say.

science NEVER said the sun went around the Earth! RELIGION said that! inferred through the preeminent place of humans in God's creation! get your facts right! religion ridiculed and put galileo through the Holy Inquisition!!!! what scientist has ever ever ever ever tortured a theist to prove his science?

Rob, you're being silly and your chronology is off by about 1400 years yo. Ptolemy was NOT a priest or a sage, HE WAS A FUCKING 2ND CENTURY AD SCIENTIST, and yes, he wholeheartedly believed in the geocentric model (as did thousands of years of astronomers not to be confused with astrologers) and constructed awkward math to try and support the premise. Really, to the ancient mind the idea that the Earth is moving was simply unimaginable. Then again, it should have been intuitive, all you have to do is drink a few too many beers and suddenly the diurnal motion becomes obvious enough so as to become disorienting ;)

can you change your sig to "posts brought to you live from the post modern dark age" please?

because the sheer DISHONESTY that you are spouting in this thread, and have done in a few others, is fucking staggering.

equivocate science with religious belief all you want, you lost that argument a long time ago and are now clinging on for the sake of sheer persistence. using geocentrism to trash science on behalf of religion is almost admirable in its sheer deviousness.