capitalism has eradicated poverty much better than communism ever did

communism gave the world empty promises, famines, exterminations, chernobyl, and extensive gulags.

look at china-- they used to have famines until the mid-late 20th century. the government's orders? "exterminate birds". fucking morons. look at china prospering now with a market economy.

yes their capitalism is not democratic. that sucks. that comes from their communist past. they still have a million uighurs in "reeducation camps".

that's communism for you.

here you watch tv and get brainwashed in a peaceful manner lmao

and yes economic principles apply across the economy, whether it's your own pocketbook or a chain restaurant. bernie doesn't know shit except empty promises. same con as trump. same fucking con.

Bernie, please no...

Lmfao, i'm not some full-blown commie over here. You don't need to keep hammering basic economics at me. I have chores to tend to this morning, but here's what I believe in a nutshell:

America rules, first and foremost. Greatest country of all time, and yes the country became that way based on the merits of capitalism. And yes, just like with capitalism, I realize that with communism/socialism/etc. that somebody is always at the top holding the power. Don't forget, I'm a former business major, symbols.

However, the problem with capitalism is that it works a little too good. You see, a business is in business to stay in business. That's all a business cares about. Each time you create a business, it's almost like breeding a monster who will stop at nothing to grow as large as humanly possible. All this P.R. bollocks is never anything more than marketing tactics, as if any dish soap executive really gives a fuck about washing some oil off of a duck.

Through capitalism, America has become an absolute monster. So many people are drowning, or feel there is no way to have their voices be heard, or their needs be fulfilled. This is why poor people turn to crime and should therefore be eradicated ( :p ) Desperate needs call for desperate measures, and people will do whatever it takes to survive. Should I remind you just how much of this country was built off of the whip-scarred backs of slaves?

When you have limited resources in a country, and some bozo has a bowling alley in his bathroom, and some other poor sap is losing their home because they can't afford to pay their medical bills: something is wrong. We need a redistribution of wealth.

Humans are not barbarians, and this 'survival of the fittest' bullshit which capitalism is based off of is no longer acceptable in 2019. As a society, we should have moved past that long ago. Is 10 million a year really not enough to live off of? Is that not an acceptable maximum wage? If you make that much, then you're damn right the rest of your money should go towards the rest of the people in your country. You sick greedy billionaire bastards.

I lost my train of thought... but yeah, America rules and I'm so proud of my country. But without the people living here, this country is nothing. I want what's best for my people, symbols. Each and every one of them is on my team. Even Donald Trump... el bastardo.

when the government gets in the business to take from one to give to another usually it does not redistribute wealth but poverty

"good intentions" does not equate good results

unintended consequences can be HUGE

and therein lies the problem

doesn't matter what your major was, if you're still buying the bernie snake oil

a lot of business majors get conned on a regular basis

also you don't understand how business works :D

you think "it's evil"-- but only a business that serves the consumer well grows and endures-- unless it has government support

^ which is why you only redistribute the wealth of the top of the top - how does that lead to poverty?

am i missing something here?

I pretty much believe in capitalism with a wage cap, I guess. Those superfluous funds are then redistributed to provide essentials for those in the country who are struggling, or to provide a helping hand in education and health care. Makes sense to me.

In America, we debate about who we trust more: government or business. Both are fucks, ultimately.

YES. YES YOU ARE. A LOT ACTUALLY. will be long to explain.


those millionares you like to complain about don't get a "wage"

"providing essentials" creates all kinds of market distortions. like the subsidies the agriculture department pays to farmers to dump shit into nutritionally defective school lunches

improving education and healthcare and having universal access to them sure is a good objective. but "soaking the rich" won't get you anywhere near there i'm sorry you're being lied to.

^ Right. Remember last December when the Trump administration explicitly lowered the standards of cafeteria food?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/u...unch-usda.html

That's what capitalism, and running the country like a corporation gets you. Everything is profit, profit, profit.

----

Wage/Salary... you know I meant "income cap" Let's not split hairs over semantics, we're friends here.

It's like when you max out the high score on a pinball machine. Just because the numbers flip over, doesn't mean the player is discouraged from aiming for the highest score possible. Give those extra points to someone who isn't as good at playing. I'm from the participation trophy generation and PROUD OF IT DAMMIT!

You're implying that the government is going to take that money and run away with it though... right? Like do things with it outside the good of the people. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I get it.

It's almost like neither the government or businesses actually care about us. Almost like the means of production should belong to the people.

You seem to be saying that the general should just accept that the wage gap has gotten bigger and will continue to get bigger. However, it hasn't always been like that. CEOs weren't giving themselves a salary that massively outstrips what the average person on the street was getting. Reagan and Thatcher gave the massive corporations carte blanche to do what they wanted and to hell with the consequences. From that we got the recession of 2008 and nothing has changed.

There has to be a level of government control and that starts at the top.

any millionaire and up that is taxed at 50-70% for a year's income can make up that difference in a YEAR just off interest and stock dividend payments alone.


Please remmeber also that income tax is the LEAST OF IT. Corporate taxes, sales tax, gasoline tax, luxury taxes on goods, properrty taxes, etc etc... The government taxes most regular people an average of 30-40% of their income.



The government asks businesses to withhold taxes. the government gets TOO MUCH MONEY IN TAXES, so they have to refund back a ton to people who were OVER TAXED.


Amazon earns billions and does not pay a cent in federal tax. nice scam.

EUGEEEEEEENE....

im trying to reply during short work breaks (pomodoro breaks).

one of the problems i have doing this is that you bring up so many things at once that i can't answer any of them because so many things going on.

briefly i will say: if it were true that business and government are evil, i'd say government is the biggest one.

for example: if i choose to buy ALL instead of TIDE, procter and gamble doesn't send a bunch of cops to my house to kick down my door and interrogate me and ask me why i have not bought tide recently. at most they will send me a coupon to entice me.

but if i choose to buy ALCOHOL ON A SUNDAY, or weed in a state where it's not allowed, i can get arrested, tried, fined, jailed, and then raped in jail.

no contest. government is more evil ha ha ha ha. they write the laws, have the cops and the prisons. i know in theory it's supposed to be a government "of the people" but we're far from such ideals.

SO:

proposition (joe):



let's try to focus the discussion on a single item so we can dissect it and figure out some common ground or agree to disagree. yes? i think the scattershot approach only breeds misunderstanding and confusion. then we all think we're yelling.

if you agree, let's start why not from the notion that the rich get "a higher wage" and "are evil". how about it? the greedy that must be punished for the common good.

sounds good? can we focus on that? for a bit anyway...?

not sure if you agreed or not but i have another 5' break so quickly to ask

is profit evil?
or is the accumulation of profit evil?

again just trying to narrow down the core issue of why we must punish the rich

were they doing something wrong from the start? or was it too much of a good thing that is the wrong?

i know you mentioned some of this with the pinball machine, i just wanna make sure that it is clear so that we don't end up talking about 2 different things.

ok! gotta piss too and do other things lmao. later.

Making sure the rich pay their (more than affordable) share isn't punishing the rich.

ok let's please backtrack a little here like i asked eugene so we can be on the same page

is profit evil?

profit is not evil.


Ignoring ethical and moral issues to gain a little more profit? EVIL.


Destroying competitors reputations and ruining countless lives for profit? EVIL.


Manufacturing items that are inherently dangerous, broken, or fradulent just to get some profit? EVIL.

The whole argument lies in that, the more money you make, the more of the nation's resources you are using up, whether that be public roads, regulatory agencies, oversight agencies, the postal system, the civil court systems, and the commerce law systems, in order to make your $$$$.


Therefore, you should owe a bigger share of your money as taxes than someone who makes $35,000 a year and does not "tax" the national/communal resources as much.

ok so where does profit come from?



i agree with you that immoral means are immoral. it's sort of a tautology.

but let's not conflate things right now.

you're saying profit is not evil. ok.

in marxist theory profit is evil btw. it is considered the result of exploitation.

so where does profit come from?

just making sure where we stand. it's hard to have a bunch of conversations at once.

What he said. No one here is saying profit is evil and certainly not one here is saying anything similar to what Marx said.

so where does profit come from?

I guess in the absolute simplest sense it comes from the difference from buying, making something (labour) and then selling it on at an increased price.

Not sure where you're gonna go with this but I'll go along.

thanks! reason im asking this is because to allow any sort of valid communication we have to have a common ground and definition of the terms

when i was a kid i was indoctrinated in the notion that profit was evil and theft from the worker. so when i heard “profit” i thought “theft and exploitation”. no theft is good.

so, in my mind, nobody had a right to a profit, let alone accumulation of profits. a profiteer was an exploiter.

so, with all that in mind, your definition is pretty good, profit is when you take more money than you put in, so i have to ask

what in the living fuck gives the busines a right to a profit? i mean— why don't they pay their suppliers more, and keep them happy? why dont they pay their workers more and forego profits? why should the public pay more for their goods than what they put into making them?

or, to frame it from the opposite perspective— why should i, the customer, who in the daytime already work hard for little money, pay the thieving business owner MORE than it cost to make the thing???

i feel robbed! robbed i tell you! we should abolish profit! i should pay a fair price! yes?