Jim O'rourke Ruined SONIC YOUTH!!!
 

So, with Rather Ripped can we finally settle the debate about whether or not it was Jim's "fault" that sonic youth were moving in a more "rock" or "classic rock" influenced direction?

I thought this was a really funny scapegoat kinda argument some people were making. Sonic Youth said time after time that Jim had little to do w/ the genesis of the songs, mostly because he himself was tentative to have that kind of influence on the band, but instead added basslines, subtle guitar parts, an extra dimension, or production. Most of the songs on Murray Street were straight up written by Thurston and then transformed by the band, but every once in a while someone would pop up and be like "Jim O'rourke ruined Sonic Youth, and his influence is clear in the rock nature of the new songs." I never really agreed with these people.

Now, Rather Ripped's got this sweet subtle pop-like sound... Almost completely devoid of extended noise noodling... and Jim's not there... A lot people argued that with Jim in the band they were more comfortable to be a little more extemporaneous and drawn out in their songs. Looks like they may have been right. I remember some quote by thurston or lee saying that because Jim left they wanted to play some more straightforward material so everyone could just grab a guitar and squeeze the song out w/out a lot of calculating.

I do have to say though, that I wasn't too into Jim's production on Nurse and Murray Street, and its nice to hear them recording at a different studio w/ a different flavor.

i thought everyone was nuts. if you pay attention with yr ears to what Jim adds in guitar work to sonic's past few records, He was bringing the noise and the noise jams/riffs. he kept the old school sonic sound alive and well buried deep within the new sonic sound. I'll miss Jim, but I haven't heard the new record to make this opinion concrete.

well if you haven't heard the new album yet, i think the production isn't too different actually as compared to Nurse or Murray Street eventhough it was recorded at Sear and not Murray Street... Rather Ripped seems a abit more "slick" production-wise, the guitars have a similar feel as the last 2 albums, except i'm hearing weird effects that i'm not use to coming from Lee (sounds at times like chorus or flanging effects which he isn't known to use)... the main difference is that the songs are indeed more short and concise and direct... subtle pop like sound? i think its alot more than just "subtle" in SY-terms... and agreed Rather Ripped is without alot of the "classic" SY guitar-noise...

O'Rourke's fault? ...don't see how you can blame him as it was the band's decision to add him in the first place, and you can't really say that Jim was the main instigator of having the band have "more extemporaneous and drawn out... songs". an example is A Thousand Leaves, those songs on that album are pretty exploratory and lengthy and had nothing to do w/ O'Rourke's presence since they were still a quartet.

Yeah, yeah, my overall feeling is that the core members of the youth just basically do whatever they want and determine the new sound. I'm don't blame Jim for anything (hence the super-ironic post title). I do get the feeling that because Jim left they indeed decided to go for a tighter more immediate sound. I think the oddest thing on the record is that Lee takes some big rock guitar leads every once and awhile which he only really did like a couple of times on dirty and jet-set.

On the production side I feel like Rather Ripped sounds much warmer than the two records with Jim. I think there's a better balance between Thurston and Lee's guitars, but maybe that's just because the third guitar is absent. The sound on Murray Street and Nurse sounded a bit clinical and calculated to me, especially murray street.

Interesting take, right now i think much of Rather Ripped is overly calculated with typical "pop and rock"-like progressions that the band had always steered away from in their past, now it seems that they are comfortable w/ taking this format on "head-on" which is strange but interesting, yet at times it will make them sound like the band they are not. i'm not dissing this album... its taking its time w/ me because of what i say above.

i don't want to say much else, since i still feel guilty for hearing the album already, and i intended to wait til the release date.

Yeah, my only problem with calculation on the new record is like when they try to go for something noisey. It's kind of like the same pattern with the noise happening two-thirds of the way through, building for a short period of time and then diffusing back into the original riff from the song or another big chorus kind of take.

yeah yeah I agree with you... i'm also noticing that much of the songs sound similar, not quite sure if it has more to do with the recording production or less with the song structures.

i should say that if you like the "softer, melodic, pretty side" of SY, this album is great for that and the production pushes that.

thurston needs to stop frontin about how much he likes wolf eyes and tell about his undying love for Phish.

That's bull shit Jim was a good addition to an all ready great band.

Be cool Jim

jim was great, anyone who says he ruined SY is illadvised

Rather ripped wouldn't tell us if he had a big influence or not. Because if he did, they would continue doing what they were doing with him. If he didn't they would be doing the same thing that they were doing with him. But then again, Sonic Youth has been known to change a lot, doing whatever inspires them at the time.

well fuck, i think the era jim was producing/playing with sonic youth was very distinct and i believe he had considerable influence. although to me its good influence, those 3 records (if you count nyc) are beautiful, so he didnt ruin sonic youth with his influence.

Jim added a real nice additional "layer" to SY....I love those albums and I'm sure I'll love the new one too.

No, sir. YOU ruined Sonic Youth.

NYVG&F Murray Street and Sonic Nurse are all brilliant albums, the three before them (a thousand leaves washing machine and EJSTNS) are less so.
Granted i never saw them live during this period and i dont have any SYRs but going on this alone i think the last few years have yielded the best Sonic Youth albums.

It is strange that of late they have "settled" shall we say with making rock albums, that have been void of thier signiture lenghty feeback and distortion ambience. I sort of miss the five minutes distortion bridges, but I still was a fan of "Nurse" for being a very breezy laid back rock album, I questioned this before and another poster said it was because of thier loss of equipment. Yet, didn't they recover a portion of it, and others they could retrieve, re-build, rework other equipment to create thier "sound".

Word. Jim's a great musician, and I wish he was still in SY personally

jim ruined sonic youth and jim definetly ruined wilco...it would have been a thousand times better if wilco stayed with their country roots like A.M. and not this indie bullshit thats so fucking popular today. over and out.

I must say I'm a fan of the earlier works of Sonic Youth, however Murray Street and Nurse were great albums. NYC Ghosts & Flowers, on the other hand, is one of my favourite albums by Sonic Youth. It was a very good mix of old and new in my opinion. So, I say... Jim O'Rourke did not ruin Sonic Youth. As for Wilco... I haven't heard anything by them since their first two albums.

i think jim's touch was subtle, but wonderful. the man knew what he was doing, it wasn't just trial and error. as for wilco, i love what jim o'rourke did with them. both of the albums he was involved with have a much more interesting sound than any of the other albums wilco put out. i don't think there's a lot of "indie shit" out now that can match up.