Sonic Youth Gossip

Sonic Youth Gossip (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/index.php)
-   Non-Sonics (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   The pro gun movement (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=40773)

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
You're wrong.

Suicidal people normally change their minds after a while, althought the passing thought might be constant they are able to resist it - because most of the time, they don't want to go through a painful slow death and would probably give up in the process. A gun provides someone (in the even of a depressive or psychotic episode) no chance to give up or even leave that state of mind. Other suicidals spend years trying to get hold of guns because they know the quickest surest way to die is shooting yourself in the head/heart.

All stats show suicides are more common when people can get hold of guns.
I've worked with people who tried and FAIL to commit suicide a couple of times, and always attempted to get hold of a gun, imagine what would have happened if they could.

In fact, since we're being honest in my teenage years I had severe depression. So I know you CANNOT control that and you need other people to help you. I tried to get hold of a gun, even going to the lenghts of talking to drug dealers about it, but it was too hard to get one.

I assure you, had I been able to get one or steal one from someone's house I would have done it and I wouldn't be here today.

Same goes for murder - no chance for self defense. I watch the news and most people I see are killed from a distance, from the back, when they are not expecting, no chance for defense. You have much better chances to defend yourself and to survive if you're stabbed or if the attacker has to come near you. Guns enable that sort of cowardice.

People die from travelling lost fucking bullets, they don't die because of knives flying in the air as they are walking the streets.

In fact, how many people kill each other because they are angry in the heat of the moment they fire a gun? I assure you if they had to get near and choke them/stab them/poison them they would probably reassess the consequences, or perhaps they wouldn't be so brave.



so what? people die

peopel kill themselves all the time

it is their life to end as they see fit, whether we see them as "depressed" or "crazy" or "stupid" for doing so. (I do not. I deeply believe that we should be able to end our lives as we see fit.)

Most female suicides do NOT use guns. That is a fact. Mainly male suicides use messy methods like disembowling or gunfire.
How do you account for that? women that are out to end their life will do it most of the time with pills, or bleeding to death, or jumping off heights or any number of non-gun methods.

yet all these women (in US at least) have just as equal access to guns as the men.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radarmaker
Try the recent Spice Girls thread for starters.


what happened on the spice girls thread?

radarmaker 08.05.2010 11:21 AM

It contained a number of comments that I would assume are precisely the type of blatant sexism that Knox complained about and that Genetic Kiss is unaware of.

knox 08.05.2010 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
so what? people die

peopel kill themselves all the time

it is their life to end as they see fit, whether we see them as "depressed" or "crazy" or "stupid" for doing so. (I do not. I deeply believe that we should be able to end our lives as we see fit.)

Most female suicides do NOT use guns. That is a fact. Mainly male suicides use messy methods like disembowling or gunfire.
How do you account for that? women that are out to end their life will do it most of the time with pills, or bleeding to death, or jumping off heights or any number of non-gun methods.

yet all these women (in US at least) have just as equal access to guns as the men.


most women don't murder with weapons either, they don't like it messy. so what? many males shoot themselves.

so what, are you saying it's ok if i had died? it sounds that's what you're saying rob.

it sounds like you're saying you wouldn't care if all the people who are rescued and saved and are now alive after they attempts with pills, jumping, slliting wrists or whatever could not saved in time because they shot themselves in the head.

i don't get it, yeah people commit suicide it's not their CHOICE. Only someone who has never been through it think it's their CHOICE, they're not able to see things clearly and make clear choices, NO it isn't they need HELP because they're sick and they need to be PROTECTED - even if from themselves.

if they were in a position to make choices, they would choose not to be depressed or mentally ill.

it's everyone's duty not to facilitate suicides and murders and protect human life in general.

in fact if i were to be suicidal right now this fucking disregard you're showing would convince me EVEN more that it's not worth living.

this kind of disregard for human life is disturbing

knox 08.05.2010 11:32 AM

as well as you ignored all the other points from my post:

being shot form a distance, from the back, no chance to defend yourself.

ann ashtray 08.05.2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
well, that's the thing I don't want anybody dead. Not even the people who pointed guns at me. So I guess that's the difference. I didn't want to talk about Manson anymore because:

a- it's unrelated
b- i was afraid it'd stop being funny and start getting vomitous

I don't know why people go on and on about people breaking it into your house. It's not often that murderers will decide to break into a stranger's house to kill them. And even if they do, they'll have that planned, you won't be expecting it, your chances are really low. Most of the time, murderers will gain access to people's houses because they are trusted.

Burglars tend to go when no one is home. For safety, you'd be advised to call the police and hide, if you see/hear someone coming in try to get out without being noticed if you can, or simply let them take what they want. Any of those options will be safer for you then standing there with a gun expecting to have a chance to shoot someone. In fact, that's how accidents happen and people shoot their friends or loved ones.

If you are so worried about burglars, you'd be safer investing your money in an alarm system or moving into an apartment if that'll help your paranoia.

The gun only provides a false sense of security: everyone can tell me one or two stories about some who managed to save himself, kudos, but they will still ignore the facts that most of the time the attempt to use a gun turns what would be a simple mugging or theft into a serious, sad incident. And when they're done with you, they will take your gun with them.

But the truth is burglars are far from being the most common type of crime, it's a bit riskier for them so they'd rather have you unprepared just walking around, when you are not expecting it.

Suchfriends is right about stats, taking guns away from citizens ends up taking guns away from criminals in the long run.

Enough with comparing guns with cars, they're far from the same thing. Although cars can be dangerous, killing is not their purpose and not everyone has the right to drive: you need tests, you need a license, you need to renew it to make sure you're still apt. Everyone will agree that process is not even strict enough, so how can you say everyone is entitled to carry a gun without much fuss? If you ask me, 65% of the people driving shouldn't be allowed to do so, they should just fucking use public transportation and stop being a danger to other people. But I guess that doesn't count in the US, where you barely have a public transportation system in most areas.

I don't drive because I'm scared of what other people are capable of, at least I have that choice. But not with guns, I can be in the fucking supermarket when some asshole has an argument and shoots someone, I can't protect myself from that.

Even with all the strict process that takes up to 5/6 years to gain permission to carry a gun here, I've seen idiots shoot because of trafic arguments or drunken fights.

Allowing people to carry guns it's unsafe for society and it's not for the greater good. But Americans seem to be all about the individual: me, me, me and MY rights.


It's not often that anyone wants to go out and kill someone period...gotta go to work, but I'll respond more later.

knox 08.05.2010 12:25 PM

It's not often. Well, then how do you explain the murder rates?

Unless that's your definition of not often, but I consider those rates unacceptable.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 12:26 PM

that chip on yr shoulder is not allowing you to process info critically knox.

not all suicides do so because of mental illness or depression.

suicide/euthinasia is, as far as I am concerned, a HUMAN RIGHT.

knox 08.05.2010 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
that chip on yr shoulder is not allowing you to process info critically knox.

not all suicides do so because of mental illness or depression.

suicide/euthinasia is, as far as I am concerned, a HUMAN RIGHT.


hhhahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahah.

suicide and euthanasia are far from the same thing.

most suicides happen among healthy people, and they're almost all related to mental illness and depression.

you say some unbelievable things sometimes, where does that come from?

so you're basically saying you'd be absolutely ok if I had died or all those people who managed to be saved were dead by now.
it'd be our human right to succumb to depression or a moment of desperation/psychosis?

those people don't want to kill themselves, they wanna be HELPED so they can FEEL BETTER.
The fact that they can't get proper help and they can't make themselves feel better most of the time, leads them to desperate measures. But they don't die because they wanna die, they do because they can't stand the pain of what they're going through.

clearly, you have never experienced this or a psychotic episode to know what's like to be out of control and unable to make CHOICES.

And our society is not very good to them either.

what you're saying is very selfish, inhumane and disturbing.

only someone who hasn't suffered with severe depression or never had any loved one suffering from it , and hasn't got a clue about mental illness and depression could say something as horrid and clueless.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 12:42 PM

you are talking about "what ifs"

I am glad you are here with us Knox.

I would not want you to not be here.

However, if you had left, we would not have gotten to know you. we would not have known that you had existed. It is impossible to guess as to how one would have reacted.

I have lived with TWO women, married to one for ten years, that suffered from near crippling depression.

I ahve helped them get better as much as I could. and know as close as can be without experienceing it myself, what one goes through.

I do not beleive anything is "sacred" I do not believe in a soul , nor any deity, nor any supernatural forces/beings. If they exist they are wholly natural.

because of this I value each and every single life as a true miracle, as a superbly orignal and valuable part of the universe as a whole. Howveer, my valuing of YOUR life in no way grants me the power/right/authority to dictate to YOU that you must continue living.

There are indeed MANY things worse than death in this world.
and thiose are for each of us to determine in kind.

please do not misread my comments as some sort of attack on you or on people who suffer from depresion or any such thing. It is just a discussion about ideas.

knox 08.05.2010 12:48 PM

This has nothing to do with what ifs.
I was ill, if I had succeeded in getting hold of a gun I would be dead.
Not if, fact.

Same thing with some people who are are also helpless in their instinct/desire/urge to kill, when they get hold of a gun, they do kill.

Most people aren't fit to have such destructive power.

Otherwise the US would be saying: it's ok for other countries to have weapons of mass destruction, it's just their RIGHT to defend themselves.

But that's not what they say, is it? Because the mere existence of such threats is a threat.

Do you see the contradiction there?

knox 08.05.2010 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
you are talking about "what ifs"

However, if you had left, we would not have gotten to know you. we would not have known that you had existed. It is impossible to guess as to how one would have reacted.

.


So, people's lives only matter to you when they somehow affect you?

It's about YOU then.

If you don't know they exist, who cares if they're fucking dying right?

What you are saying very clearly is that you wouldn't have cared if I had died because you wouldn't know me. What I am saying, very clearly, is that I honestly wish all the people I don't know and are suffering and unable to think clearly are protected from themselves so they don't have to commit the destructive horrible that that is suicide.

knox 08.05.2010 12:57 PM

Rob, you don't understand mental illness and depression. Suicide is NOT a choice, and it's completely different from euthanasia.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 08.05.2010 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple
I always laugh when the lunatical left in the US target pro gun movements when politically posturing, stating countries with strict gun laws have lower murder rates per 100,000 people. Yet I've just proved that if those very countries had the same population as the US, the murder rates of those countries would exceed the US, especially the UK.



Let us compare shall we?
Quote:

By Christine Jeavans



 


More than 70 teenagers were violently killed in the UK in 2008, BBC research has found.
The BBC News website has gathered information from police forces around the UK on every reported case of murder and manslaughter (homicide) in the 10-19 age group.
Figures include deaths resulting from apparent domestic incidents and straightforward assaults as well as gang-related violence.




 


In a year in which gangs and knife crime have featured regularly in headlines, collating and mapping the full information revealed that most police forces had not seen a case of teenage homicide.
The deaths were concentrated in a handful of locations with London suffering the highest number of young victims.
Other forces which reported multiple killings include Greater Manchester with five deaths; West Yorkshire, Merseyside and Strathclyde with four each and the West Midlands and South Yorkshire with three.


THE ENTIRE COUNTRY!!!


This is Los Angeles County for the same year, 148 (840 total !!!) homicides under 19 years old

if you compare the LA TIMES homicide project data, map and statistics with the BBC News similar project with teen killings in the UK the discrepancy speaks volumes...

THAT IS JUST ONE CITY IN THE US! ONE CITY HAS nearly 2-1 homicide rate as the ENTIRE UNITED KINGDOM! how many people live there, what 60-80 million people? How many in Los Angeles area, 10-11 million? Fuck that noise yr spitting, the murder rates in US are much much higher by any ratio or counting..

I pray to God day and night that only 70 kids get killed this year in this town. There were 10 teenage homicides in London thus far, LA this year has had nearly a hundred :(

knox 08.05.2010 01:15 PM

Anyway, the point of this thread is not to discuss anything related to suicide.
My original point was guns are destructive no matter what you think, they always represent more risk than safety.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knox
This has nothing to do with what ifs.
I was ill, if I had succeeded in getting hold of a gun I would be dead.
Not if, fact.

Same thing with some people who are are also helpless in their instinct/desire/urge to kill, when they get hold of a gun, they do kill.

Most people aren't fit to have such destructive power.

Otherwise the US would be saying: it's ok for other countries to have weapons of mass destruction, it's just their RIGHT to defend themselves.

But that's not what they say, is it? Because the mere existence of such threats is a threat.

Do you see the contradiction there?


it is a TOUGH subject indeed knox.

and it touches on other very heavy tough subjects.

The US government actually DOES say that it is Israel's right to have WMD's (hundreds of thermonuclear weapons provided by the USA)
then they say it is NOT Iran's right to have them. The US GOVENRMENT is straight hypocritical all the time it seems.

Just like what I mentioned earlier about federal minimum sentences for crack cocaine, where 5 grams use dto get you 30 years MINIMUM, whereas 5 grams of powdered cocaine (loved by rich powerful white folks the world over) got you 5-10 years, if that.

the double standards are evident.

and for every depressed individual that does not use a gun to end it, because guns are not available, there will be another human being who died becauise he/she did not have a gun to defend themselves. that is the complexity of real life.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 01:44 PM

and even though guns may represent more risk that safety, they still represent safety.


safety belts in cars (an ostensibly good thing right?) represent more safety than risk but there are also people killed becase they choke on the restraining belts after a crash, or because they could not escape the flaming wreck because of their seatbelts.

my whole point being that the good must be taken with the bad and vice versa, and that wholesale banning of something like guns, weed, alcohol, sex, etc is extreme overreaction which ussually (if we let history teach us) leads to all new horrors that were not expected by those people wishing to "do good" by banning things.

hevusa 08.05.2010 01:45 PM

America is PROOF that letting citizens own guns is STUPID. Just look at the stats when compared to ALL the other industrialized nations. It is pure idiocy.

Rob Instigator 08.05.2010 01:49 PM

No one "Lets" american citizens own guns.

It is a RIGHT of our Constitution.

Placing too much power in the hands of a few (any few) who are to then determine what is best for all is fucking IDIOCY. you ever read animal farm?

and yes, it goes both ways.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 08.05.2010 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
No one "Lets" american citizens own guns.



nonsense, the gun manufacturers let us all have guns, and the results are unanimous worldwide.




 


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All content 2006 Sonic Youth