i saw em in eugene, ive put out a tape of cranks and been in marginal email contact but this was the first time id seen him play or met him. big fan. ive seen pcrv a few times now, and i gotta say that his recordings that i have far outweigh anytime ive seen him live. my dad acually wasnt there, he was across the street, but he has been to many a noise show. he is not a fan per se but he thinks its cool i guess.

There just wasn't a moment in time when rock 'n' roll 'happened', and when I say it wasn't 'invented', I mean that it came from various sources (in particular, r&b, jazz and country) and was actually nothing new. For an example, listen to what Wynonie Harris was doing in the 1940's: rock 'n' roll in all but name. And add to that Louis Jordan, Big Joe Turner, and a host of other black artists.

More relevant was the affluence you mentioned. It's a myth that teens didn't rebel until that point, and a myth that music wasn't a form of rebellion. An understanding of the history of jazz will tell you that parents were outraged by this form of music decades before the term rock 'n' roll was used.

Affluence meant more people had access to television and so parents could see these outrageous artists, children had more money and so could afford their own clothes, and could afford to buy more records and what we now call 'merchandise'.

I think we've come to a point of agreement. That the major difference during this period was marketing, which resulted largely from affluence.

The term rock 'n' roll, incidentally was used way before the 50's. Rock, roll, jazz and many other terms were just words for sex. And the terms were often misunderstood by white audiences. Rocking was having sex, rolling was having sex, so to rock and roll...(I have a few pre-1950's songs which use the expression rock and roll, but I can't think of them off the top of my head).

Interestingly, Nick Tosches has suggested that rock n roll as rebellion ended when Elvis recorded Milk Cow Blues Boogie (1955/6?) with it's phoney false start ("Hold it fellas, that don't move me. Let's get real, real gone for a change...").

I was about 10 when I first listened to the Elvis Sun Sessions, and even at that tender age, I cringed every time I listened to that song.

I'd be interested to know who's idea it was. Sam Phillips would be a good bet I suppose.

Your thinking is about as deep as a speed bump. And each of you betray a firm foundation of musical ignorance with your unintentionally revealing jibber-jabber.

Um, when Charlie Parker said "fuck you" to the notes on the sheet in front of him and blew free on "Cherokee" in 1939...


...that was the first great act of rebellion. There have been countless others acts of rebellion by countless jazz musicians since as the music was pushed forward.
(which it did...up until the fusion sell-out(s) in the '70s)

Now there we other influences to be sure (Abstract Expressionist painting, early Rock 'n' Roll), but it was primarily the Hard Bop of the '50s and '60s that gave rise to the beatniks. The activisists wtihin the beatnik subculture along with the early civil rights leaders, helped spawn the civil rights movement. The counter-culture hippie generation followed suit and so forth...

It was also jazz music that first found a lot of artists (nearly all of them immigrants or otherwise minorities) putting out their own records, and forming musical communities. The conscientious artist-friendly labels like Blue Note led the charge. Blues and Jazz musicians invented the DIY aesthetic long before garage bands.

One of the reasons marijuana was outlawed in the United States is because of the popularity of early jazz.
Lawmakers feared their white women might venture into a jazz club and get stoned and sleep with a black man.
Jazz, although it has some roots in the blues (music borne of slavery and by those of the lowest possible rung of society), is an original musical art form. As any idiot should know, "new" and "original," by nature, often spells T-R-O-U-B-L-E.
By the time jazz started to spawn a a solid subculture, it became a "rebellious threat" to be sure.

blah

go ahead...

resume your bleeting...

excuse me for reading meaning into your poop

it's just that words do have meaning and if you were a thinking person you would know all the inferences before you choose your words.

& anyway, are you kids?

what's the preoccupation with "parents?"
A battle of the generations seems to be the underlying theme.

I used to be With IT. But then they changed what IT was. Now what I'm with isn't IT, and what's IT seems scary and weird. It'll happen to YOU." -- Abe Simpson

I think too many young people going through an Identity Formative stage psychologically are too concerned with weirding-out others as a self-defense mechanism, and thus opt for harsh musics (& extreme everthing else) maybe just a wee bit too exclusively as a result. It's a bit like the goth girl with the heavy makeup or the jackass with green hair syndrome as the confused and frightened one becomes completely consumed with a hipper-than-thou "fuck you" image and persona, i.e., mask. However, in the case of the internet user, similar behavior may, of course, also manifest as a repressed personality or fantasy identity owing to the anonymous nature of the medium.

Cool. You can still download my radio show with their collaboration and the interview HERE.

awesome! ill check it out.

and to all you people arguing that jazz is/wasnt rebellious... you are fucking morons. all i gotta say.

Pretty much.

Yeah. My parents are cool. They don't give a shit what I listen to. They didn't when I was a teen either. Well perhaps they did, but they were never ones to restrict. They're both got good musical tastes anyways.

not quite. Only like 0.000001% of punk is commercial.There is still PLENTY of good stuff. Theres so many people people who got jaded, especially with hardcore and think that it got shit after black flag and minor threat - its not true!

Punk was heralded as being the music that saved the world from the likes of Genesis and Yes by showing that you didn't have to be a virtuoso musician to make music, anyone could pick a guitar, learn a chord and start to play.

Noise has taken this one step further, and any fool can now use any means to make some sort of din and claim it's meant to sound like that because it's "noise music". The noise market may once have been interesting and creative, now it's filled with too many talentless idiots who think that because they're upsetting someone their musical expression must be valid. The genre needs to be driven back underground for its own good.

By the way, I'm not a fan of noise music.

so which noise is infantile and which isn't?

sudden infant.

sudden infant are a bit rubbish

should i go and see wolf eyes tonight? (bare in mind that i've seen them 6 times already)

yeah saw sudden infant in berlin and wasnt that impressed.

as for wolf eyes, depends how you feel really. anyway i thought you had work to do?

i've got enough time to go and see wolf eyes, but i can't make up my mind how i feel about it.

i am sure it will become clear in the next few hours. but back to your question. which noise is not childish and which is?

T&B - did Wolf Eyes offer enough of a new experience on each of the previous viewings that you think you'll get something new again out of seeing them a seventh time? If yes, then, yes, you should go and see them again.