Sonic Youth Gossip

here's a 1989 interview where they talk about the whitey album

Mixing disposable disco with grungy guitars, Madonna and The Beatles has earned SONIC YOUTH a South Bank Show documentary and a huge cult following. EDDIE GIBB confronts STEVE SHELLEY and asks "Is it art?"

WHEN THE producer of The South Bank Show phones, you could be forgiven for beginning to take yourselves a bit seriously. When this happened to post-wave groovesters Sonic Youth, they did no such thing, but instead snuggled under their Madonna eiderdowns to record The Whitey Album under the guise of their alter-egos, Ciccone Youth. The result of a long-running joke, this curious project started life as a full-blown cover of The Beatles similarly titled opus. Pipped at that particular post by ropebrained Yugo-rockers Laibach and their corruption of Let It Be, the Youth went all funny, and laid grungy guitar atop the likes of A Taste of Honey's Boogie Oogie Oogie. Stuffed with puns and one-liners Whitey's other highlights include such indispensable sounds as a sampled whale, a 45-second, 'speeded-up' version of a silent John Cage number, and a classic trash adaptation of Robert Palmer's big stiffie Addicted To Love. But ask Steve Shelley, the Ringo Starr of the Sonics' set-up, whether Whitey might be a novelty record, he comes close to bristling.

"I wouldn't say it was that, because there are some really cool things on there that I think are really worthwhile," he contends, admitting the collection is "a mixed bag", unlike its immediate predecessor, the epic double set Daydream Nation.

"Daydream Nation is going to have a lot more endurance. It was made with much more sense of purpose. The Whitey Album was a working project to get us into a different frame of mind. We basically went into the studio and started playing around with the tape decks. When we started recording we didn't have any songs."

Six sides of guitar fuzz in as many months could be interpreted as self-indulgence. Are Sonic Youth taking people for a ride?

"Not at all. I feel that a lot of bands out there are taking people for a ride by pretending that they are doing something valid, when in fact they are just rehashing things that have been done a million times before. At least we are sticking our necks out and having some fun. That's what music is about; not following the rules. I don't feel we are taking people for a ride at all - they don't have to like it, we just do what we want."

So the joke isn't on the people that are buying the record?

"The joke is on everybody," he argues, not quite convincingly. "It is on us in that we can put out records that are as odd as this. We are not taking our position very seriously, just presenting something as a stupid joke just because we feel like it."

THE Whitey Album has some real moments of inspiration and humour, but there is no escaping the fact that the Sonics have pushed their luck and got away with it.

"People are just watching us very closely at the moment," Steve confirms. "They are just waiting for us to do something that they can cut us down with. I don't thin we can do no wrong right now. People are ready to give us hell because they are tired of hearing about Sonic Youth."

When Ciccone Youth went into the studio to record The Whitey Album, they expected it to turn out as a kind of mutated hip-hop album. It ended up far more diverse than that. Beyond the two Madonna songs and Kim Gordon deadpanning her way through Robert Palmer, there are disco hints-a-plenty. Could it be that Sonic Youth are closet groovers?

"It's part of our make-up; we use samples of things which you hear without being a person that goes to clubs. Some of the samples are taken from songs I remember hearing in the family car when I was about eleven years old. I probably didn't like them, at the time, but they made an impression on me. We're not into going to discos, but that kind of music does have a meaning for us."

The role of Madonna Louise Ciccone in all of this is interesting. Why does she hold such a fascination for you?

"She is important for what she became, which was a symbol that was larger than life and larger than her music. It is an incredible thing."
Is she a strong symbol or is she being exploited?

"No, I think she is bright and knows what she is doing. But we don't think about her that much anymore, now that we've got Tiffany and Debbie Gibson!"

So have you taken the Ciccone idea to its logical conclusion?

"It's hard to say. We've taken the Ciccone concept and made it about more than just Madonna."

Will the Ciccones get a support slot on the Sonic Youth tour?

"There is no way we could attempt it. We would just feel too stupid doing things like the Tuff Titty raps live."

IF The Whitey Album is a humorous record, then the tremendous Daydream Nation was dangerously close to progressive rock. A double, with a gatefold sleeve and most tracks lasting well over five minutes, the case for the prosecution rallies on the final side with, forsooth, a trilogy! Such are the things which impress South Bank Show producers, of course. Just what does Melvyn Bragg have up his sleeve?

"We are not exactly sure, because we haven't seen it since it was filmed! It's frightening to commit yourself to film and not know how it will turn out until it's on screen. We filmed some clips of us playing live in this disused railway loading dock, which was a really good location. We did some group and individual interviews. There are some other New York people in it too, and there is a section on our friend John Zorn. It should be interesting to see."

Aren't you getting fed up talking about Sonic Youth?

"Not yet, but it is hard to keep on analysing ourselves. One of the things behind the group is that we just do what we do, but it is hard convincing people that it is that simple."

Sonic Youth also produced their own video for the song Teenage Riot. It is an exciting collage of swiftly edited clips, not only of themselves, but also such notables as Dinosaur Jr, Patti Smith and Iggy Pop. It places Sonic Youth into a hall of icons which includes many of their contemporaries and a few of their heroes.

"It was a group effort," reveals Steve. "We got together all our favourite clips, some raw footage shot by New York film maker and photographer, Robert Kern, and some shots of us playing live at CBGB's. Then Lee and Thurston sat down at the editing desk one night and put it all together. It is really fun for us to watch because it does not just revolve around ourselves, but it has all our friends and people we look up to, or enjoy in some way. Although it does represent a scene, it is pretty broad based; it's not a narrow territory because it includes everyone from Sun Ra to Black Flag."

Sonic Youth are firmly lodged in what has been termed New York's art/noise scene. Steve is an out-of-towner from Michigan, but considers that he has a good perspective on the city. Though Lou Reed seems to have concluded on his new album that the Big Apple has gone rotten, do Sonic Youth still consider it a good place to be?

"New York is disintegrating a bit; all America is. But it is not that big a deal on a daily basis and it would be pretty hard to stop. I didn't grow up there but I love living in it. Being in New York makes it really easy for what we are doing; to have the band and be able to go to all sorts of different places, but still be in touch with the business side of things. It keeps us away from Los Angeles where the music business is really creepy; it is just a sick joke. In New York we are far removed from that glamorous, heavy metal, pop star lifestyle. There are lots of opportunities, but then there is also a lot of death and destruction and stupidity and ugliness."

But people carry on, it hasn't stopped them going out?

"I don't think that it has got to that extreme yet. You just go out and take your chances! But I'm not really into hanging out; I just go out if there is something coming through town that really interests me."

Currently Sonic Youth are not thinking beyond the end of their tour, though they hope to play in the Soviet Union. For music fans there it will certainly be a big conceptual leap from rock's last glasnost ambassadors, Big Country. It's a curious notion, for though Madonna has made the pages of Pravda, the Sonics' trash aesthetic is almost entirely American in its origins.

Steve has no such doubts. "It will give us the chance to influence Russian music for years to come," he boasts.

Reproduced from "Cut" Magazine, March 1989