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h8kurdt 02.20.2019 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
thanks! reason im asking this is because to allow any sort of valid communication we have to have a common ground and definition of the terms

when i was a kid i was indoctrinated in the notion that profit was evil and theft from the worker. so when i heard “profit” i thought “theft and exploitation”. no theft is good.

so, in my mind, nobody had a right to a profit, let alone accumulation of profits. a profiteer was an exploiter.

so, with all that in mind, your definition is pretty good, profit is when you take more money than you put in, so i have to ask

what in the living fuck gives the busines a right to a profit? i mean— why don't they pay their suppliers more, and keep them happy? why dont they pay their workers more and forego profits? why should the public pay more for their goods than what they put into making them?

or, to frame it from the opposite perspective— why should i, the customer, who in the daytime already work hard for little money, pay the thieving business owner MORE than it cost to make the thing???

i feel robbed! robbed i tell you! we should abolish profit! i should pay a fair price! yes?


But you can. You can shop around a find a deal and buy whatever item you want at a price that seems fair to you.

Anyway, we've diverged from what we were talking about. My point is that it's not unreasonable to expect people on stupid wages to pay their share of taxes. Also it's all well and good saying that government is evil but it's not. The system that you've got going on has led to people with the wrong intentions getting government jobs, but government in itself isn't (I can hear Tesla laughing now).

Sorry Eugene I've highjacked your conversation here.

!@#$%! 02.20.2019 02:57 PM

i know you're trying to jump ahead of things but you're trying to jump ahead to the "stupid wages" part and there is the "stupid" part and no, i refuse to go there yet.

let's not go there yet!

let's really look at the issue of profits.

this is not just a matter of people paying a price that seems fair. that comes after. cuz what am i to do-- choose between 2 scammers but still get scammed? well...

see, i can actually find 2 good moral justifications for taking a profit:

1) the profit is a compensation for the risk the business owners (you, me, and everyone in the stock market for example) take with their money. because we could just stuff our money under the mattress, yes? where it's safe... a business can lose the money. so, the profit is the reward for taking a risk.

2) but wait! isn't that just a gamble you ask? what is this? a fucking casino?

no.

the social moral reason why a business is entitled to take a profit is because IT CREATES VALUE. the profit is, broadly speaking, a measure of the value added to all the components. the whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

when the maker of crystal sauce sends buyers to chihuahua, buys aged peppers, puts them in a bottle with vinegar, pays for health inspections, sends it my way, etc... it creates a value for me that is greater than the sum of its parts.

i pay more than what it costs the business to make hot sauce ... because that is the reward for creating something that i could not do for myself otherwise.

sure i could go to chihuahua buy my own peppers make my own vinegar bottle it oooofff... it would be VERY expensive for me to make all this. and i should have better things to do with my time, like play nintendo or something (lol).

so paying 1.50 for a bottle of sauce that cost maybe $1 to make is not a bad deal for me. THE BUSINESS HAS ADDED VALUE TO THE ECONOMY. THEY ARE PRODUCING A SOCIAL GOOD. the business owner's "greed" for "profit" has benefitted... ME!

and you know, the business owner didn't need to go through all this trouble to make a profit. they could have just stuffed the money under the mattress and jerk off all day.

i would actually pay more even to avoid going to chihuahua and look for peppers... but this (only this) is where competition comes from. because texas pete and louisiana compete with crystal. and all 3 are trying to get my business.

ok this stuff ate my short break and then some. i will be back later with more shit.

Rob Instigator 02.20.2019 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
ok so where does profit come from?




i agree with you that immoral means are immoral. it's sort of a tautology.

but let's not conflate things right now.

you're saying profit is not evil. ok.

in marxist theory profit is evil btw. it is considered the result of exploitation.

so where does profit come from?

just making sure where we stand. it's hard to have a bunch of conversations at once.





Marxism is dumb as fuck, useless, and completely discredited as an ideology that can run governments.



In the ideal world, the world that most businessmen would like you to believe they inhabit, a product or service is exchanged for whatevr the "market" (meaning the consumer) is willing to pay for it.



Profit comes from selling a product/service at a state of rarity. I can try to sell Mangoes on the street in Puerto Rico but no one will buy them as everyone has a dozen mango trees on their property. My only way to get any profit (meaning more money than I spent to sell the mangoes) is top take them (incurring more cost) to a location without mangoes. The rarer a product or service is the m ore profit can be gained from it.


The USA system is screwed because instead of putting profits back into the businesses, so that wages go up, employee satisfaction goes up, and the product/service becomes of a better quality, much of the PROFIT goes to stockholders. Stockholders are people and organizations/banks that have absolutely no input and say into HOW a product or service is sold or rendered, but who claim the most influence on the state of any business.


The entirety of the USA business and finance system is a giant pyramid scheme, propped up by the federal Reserve.

!@#$%! 02.20.2019 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
Marxism is dumb as fuck, useless, and completely discredited as an ideology that can run governments.



In the ideal world, the world that most businessmen would like you to believe they inhabit, a product or service is exchanged for whatevr the "market" (meaning the consumer) is willing to pay for it.



Profit comes from selling a product/service at a state of rarity. I can try to sell Mangoes on the street in Puerto Rico but no one will buy them as everyone has a dozen mango trees on their property. My only way to get any profit (meaning more money than I spent to sell the mangoes) is top take them (incurring more cost) to a location without mangoes. The rarer a product or service is the m ore profit can be gained from it.


The USA system is screwed because instead of putting profits back into the businesses, so that wages go up, employee satisfaction goes up, and the product/service becomes of a better quality, much of the PROFIT goes to stockholders. Stockholders are people and organizations/banks that have absolutely no input and say into HOW a product or service is sold or rendered, but who claim the most influence on the state of any business.


The entirety of the USA business and finance system is a giant pyramid scheme, propped up by the federal Reserve.


but rob that is way too large and scattershot for me to be able to answer fairly.

from the microeconomics of mango to macroeconomic conspiracy theories is too much of a range for anyone to answer.

BUT let me take one thing you mention: the mango thing

close, close...

it's not a matter of mere rarity. it's a matter of VALUE.

value may relate to rarity.

for example if you are lost in the desert you may value water a lot more because it's rare.

but just because something is rare it doesn't follow that one must value it.

e.g., dragonfruit

dragonfruit is rare as fuck in this here desert. i look at it, five bucks, fuck that, i can buy a red baron pizza and a can of pringles for that.

i don't value the rare dragonfruit. maybe some day. i don't know. who cares.

so you're right that profit and value are related.

but value. it's not just about rarity.

why is crystal sauce valuable to me? it's not rare but it's valuable enough to pay more than it costs to make and deliver to my local store.

eh??? why???

where does value come from?

hint: the marxists were wrong about it

Rob Instigator 02.20.2019 04:02 PM

value is ephemeral.


I firmly believe that there is only so much "wealth" in any closed system. For someone to make a million, several hundred thousand people had to lose $10-$20 each. There is no "wealth creation." I hate that insidious lie.


for example, people nasume you create a new product and all the money you make is new wealth, but that is false. any money apple computers made, for example, was money that texas Instruments, Coleco, Tandy, etc. did NOT make. There is truly only so much to go around.




value is not solely determined by $$. I value you guys opinions and friendships but I would never place a price on it, and I would never expect to pay $$ for the value of your friendship.


It is extremely complex, and irreducible to simple statements of "truth"


(BTW, the Marxists were wrong about pretty much everything)


in American pyramid-scheme business, many corporations actively purchase products and businesses that have negative value. The tax breaks they get from losing money on one business offset the taxes they are supposed to pay from the profit of a different business. They get VALUE but no PROFIT.

!@#$%! 02.20.2019 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
value is ephemeral.


im talking about practical stuff not metaphysics. life is ephemeral too. so is value. but in this life, value is value.

i want things

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
I firmly believe that there is only so much "wealth" in any closed system. For someone to make a million, several hundred thousand people had to lose $10-$20 each. There is no "wealth creation." I hate that insidious lie.


there is wealth creation!

i submit to you: crystal hot sauce combine aged chihuahua peppers, bottle with vinegar and salt in a hygienic fashion, bring it to a nearby store: I AM WEALTHY FOR I HAVE DELICIOUS AGED CHIHUAHUAN PEPPER ON MY TABLE

WEALTH!!!

you rich gringos don't appreciate wealth no more

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
for example, people nasume you create a new product and all the money you make is new wealth, but that is false. any money apple computers made, for example, was money that texas Instruments, Coleco, Tandy, etc. did NOT make. There is truly only so much to go around.


no entiendo

are you talking about schumpeter, creative destruction, etc?

too soon! too soon...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
value is not solely determined by $$. I value you guys opinions and friendships but I would never place a price on it, and I would never expect to pay $$ for the value of your friendship.


correct. not all value involves money. but im not gonna fuck a stranger for their hot sauce! i prefer to give them money than love.

well, not fuck.. you get the idea. was just being extreme to clarify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
It is extremely complex, and irreducible to simple statements of "truth"


and yet, we must discuss positive factual statements

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
(BTW, the Marxists were wrong about pretty much everything)


yes but their theory of value is the source of their wrongness. i will follow with this in the next post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator
in American pyramid-scheme business, many corporations actively purchase products and businesses that have negative value. The tax breaks they get from losing money on one business offset the taxes they are supposed to pay from the profit of a different business. They get VALUE but no PROFIT.


this is above my paygrade. wtf do i know of corporate tax offsets. not my sphere. accountants, lawyers, taxes... headaches.

!@#$%! 02.20.2019 04:21 PM

OKAY. SO.

to make things short.

VALUE is created by human desire. in the human mind.

that's it. it's that simple.

VALUE is... WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

VALUE is... CONSUMER DEMAND.

PRODUCTION has the purpose to MEET DEMAND.

otherwise, why work? of your needs are all met, you do nothing but sleep and fart.

if the consumer wants nothing, there is no value. you can work and work and work and make things and if the consumer does not want them... you're shit out of luck.

marxists had a LABOR THEORY OF VALUE.

even if marxism has fallen out of fashion, many of us still knowingly or unknowingly have a LABOR THEORY OF VALUE.

meaning: things are worth whatever work we put in it!

and this seems fair.

but what if i work 10,000 hours digging holes and then covering them up for no purpose?

that is a fuckton of labor with zero value.

this is what happens when someone makes a product nobody wants. you're shit out of luck but it has no value.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT A "FAIR PRICE"

fair is what people will willingly pay for it. yes rarity and other shit will feature into it.

but something of value is basically something that has a demand for it.

(that includes friendships too. you want friendship, you value it.)

(but talking about economics here)

A BUSINESS CREATES VALUE WHEN IT MAKES SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WANT. and with decent management it will profit and the business owners will be rewarded.

A BUSINESS DESTROYS VALUE WHEN IT THROWS RESOURCES INTO A FUCKED MONEY PIT OF USELESSNESS and the owners and investors will lose their shirts in the process lmao.

that's just what value is.

i want crystal hot sauce, i value it.

i want a 65" korean tv, i value it.

i personally don't give 2 shits about non-industrial diamonds (laughable) but enough people value them enough to make them expensive (fools, their problem)

i value water more in the desert than in my kitchen where it pours “free” from the tap ($10/mo or whatever)

unless ther is no water in my kitchen and i have to wash dishes. oh i have driven miles and miles to fill a tank of water. so i do value water in my kitchen always. but more when it’s scarce!.

see, this is why marxists think profit is theft: because, they say, the owner provided no labor! or the labor was negligible! or whatever other bullshit!

this is why they had a hard time satisfying consumer demand in their economy. they weren't "evil". they were just... wrong about reality.

wow i am tired from work today. i don't know if my exertions will amount to anything of value haaa haaaa haaaaaa. we'll see... one day...

dirty bunny 02.20.2019 05:49 PM

I'm just scanning this but symbols makes a lot of sense.

Skuj 02.20.2019 10:22 PM

But look at the last election.....what were the defining things that people were discussing? What details on policy did Trump put forth? Nobody gave a flying fuck about supply/demand/value/debt/foreign policy/pussy/fitness.

It all came down to emails.

Skuj 02.20.2019 10:24 PM

WTF is this "Socialism" that Trump keeps tagging the Dems with? The population doesn't fucking know, or care. It's just "bad". Like those emails. (Do you guys really think that Trump understands Socialism?) :)

!@#$%! 02.20.2019 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuj
WTF is this "Socialism" that Trump keeps tagging the Dems with? The population doesn't fucking know, or care. It's just "bad". Like those emails. (Do you guys really think that Trump understands Socialism?) :)

“the evil rich”

“redistribution of wealth”

government ownership of the means of production (healthcare is 20% of the economy roughly)

it doesnt matter if he knows or doesn’t. maybe kellyane is putting words in his moutn.

what matters is that this country has a strong tradition of individualism and free enterprise, and the takeover of the democratic party by the anticapitalist wing is gonna bite us in the ass HARD

there are reasonable ways to increase revenue from the wealthy (eg look at capital gains tax) without sounding like they’re a) an unlimited resource, b) evildoers

this is how the democratic party loses me for example

but hey if they wanna pander to the occupy kids, good luck with that...

quien con niños se acuesta amanece meado

Dr. Eugene Felikson 02.20.2019 10:57 PM

"Nobody knows more about socialism than I do."

:rolleyes:

demonrail666 02.21.2019 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

fair is what people will willingly pay for it


That makes sense within the context of a highly competitive market but what about the private rail company that has a monopoly on a certain route (arranged by agreement with other rail companies on other lines) that lets it cancel trains or hike fares as and when it wants to and still make huge profits because it has an effectively captive consumer base, made up largely of commuters, who aren't so much willing to pay for their service as forced to, because they effectively have no realistic alternative? This is the capitalism that I have a problem with, not the guy who sells hot sauce.

!@#$%! 02.21.2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonrail666
That makes sense within the context of a highly competitive market but what about the private rail company that has a monopoly on a certain route (arranged by agreement with other rail companies on other lines) that lets it cancel trains or hike fares as and when it wants to and still make huge profits because it has an effectively captive consumer base, made up largely of commuters, who aren't so much willing to pay for their service as forced to, because they effectively have no realistic alternative? This is the capitalism that I have a problem with, not the guy who sells hot sauce.


ah, captive markets...

those usually don’t last without government support, do they?

i mean, i get that there’s a cartel in your example, and a rail line is (sort of) a natural monopoly, but what prevents an entrepreneur from launching a more convenient bus or van line that runs along the same lines as the train, and defeats them, or at least forces the train lines to lower prices?

the cartel formation is rent-seeking behavior that allows them to raise prices without added benefit to the public.

in a market economy we value public service through competition. this is why competition is sort of the supreme value. yes there are barriers to entry for the public transportation business, but if the government is promoting rent-seeking behavior that’s where the real problem comes with “the rich”, or with any group that seeks special treatment and protection from competition.

on the other hand, 20 years ago in the u.s. it took a family about 31 weeks of income to purchase a new vehicle. today the average is 21 weeks of income, i think i read. ("wage stagnation," whatever).

so through competition and innovation cars have become cheaper, safer, and more fuel-efficient. maybe at this price point it could beat the train? i don’t know your train prices or car prices or other options. vote with your pounds.

but anyway without the government propping up a cartel that does not benefit the customers, and limiting consumer options, it’s hard to see how this cartel would endure.

!@#$%! 02.21.2019 09:33 AM

eta: check this one demonyo

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverw.../#7b0f5cd4a1aa

h8kurdt 02.21.2019 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!


That's incredibly flawed. Might be nice in Germany but here is a tad different. We have Megabus coaches too, however, we also have the traffic to contend with.
A coach journey for me from Preston to London is 6 hours, nearly 7. Worse if there's traffic. Train it's 2 1/2 hours. It would cost £30 for a return by the coach but y'know what? The idea of spending 7 hours on a very average coach is not one for me, Clive. If I book ahead enough I can get a return on the train for £60.

And also, that looks at long distant travel. On a personal level getting the bus from Preston to Manchester (45 minute train journey) is the only realistic way to there,bar driving. It's the same in London. People commute from the outskirts into London and the train is usually the best way. You seen London traffic, right? Which brings us back to his original point of people have no viable alternative.

Anyway, from all this I can't tell if your posts are incredibly anti-government and pro massive corporation. Ask me what a profit is one more damn time...

!@#$%! 02.21.2019 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h8kurdt
That's incredibly flawed. Might be nice in Germany but here is a tad different. We have Megabus coaches too, however, we also have the traffic to contend with.
A coach journey for me from Preston to London is 6 hours, nearly 7. Worse if there's traffic. Train it's 2 1/2 hours. It would cost £30 for a return by the coach but y'know what? The idea of spending 7 hours on a very average coach is not one for me, Clive. If I book ahead enough I can get a return on the train for £60.

Anyway, from all this I can't tell if your posts are incredibly anti-government and pro massive corporation. Ask me what a profit is one more damn time...

im pro-enterprise and against rent-seeking through government manipulation

so im for government when it ensures competition and free markets, against it when it establishes monopolies, cartels, special protections, etc

so you’re saying the train price is advantageous to you against alternative options? what’s the problem then?

-

i dont know about the new scenario you added and i cant comment

!@#$%! 02.21.2019 10:28 AM

so for example i have no problem with “corporations” in themselves.

there’s nothing wrong with corporations. they’re a way to pool resources for large enterprises where one individual lacks the capital. (e.g., a railway, insurance, mining, airlines, tech, etc)

but i do have a problem when a corporation lobbies the government asking for special favors, to leech from taxpayers to protect them from competitors, and guarantee privileges for themselves without adding any value to the economy.

that there is the problem we have today. “corporations are people” lmao. and “vote”. NO.

h8kurdt 02.21.2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!
im pro-enterprise and against rent-seeking through government manipulation

so im for government when it ensures competition and free markets, against it when it establishes monopolies, cartels, special protections, etc

so you’re saying the train price is advantageous to you against alternative options? what’s the problem then?

-

i dont know about the new scenario you added and i cant comment


Key point-book ahead. My point being that the coach isn't a viable alternative in many situations. Long distance is ok if you're willing to put up with 7 hour coach journey.

I've actually forgotten what we were discussing. Something to do with the super rich need to pay their more than sizable share in taxes. 50% is NOT a high number. Things can't keep on as they are in that the gap gets bigger and bigger. This is why Bernie Sanders' stance has the potential to move a lot of people. However, he has got the whole media and Trump shouting "socialism" to fight against.

!@#$%! 02.21.2019 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h8kurdt
Key point-book ahead. My point being that the coach isn't a viable alternative in many situations. Long distance is ok if you're willing to put up with 7 hour coach journey.

I've actually forgotten what we were discussing. Something to do with the super rich need to pay their more than sizable share in taxes. 50% is NOT a high number. Things can't keep on as they are in that the gap gets bigger and bigger. This is why Bernie Sanders' stance has the potential to move a lot of people. However, he has got the whole media and Trump shouting "socialism" to fight against.

the problem is that the rich are not rich because of “high wages”

the rich are rich because their ownership of business entrprises which create wealth in the market.

this wealth is shared by everyone though, not just in the marketplace with better/cheaper goods and services, but also in our collective ownership of these enterprises via saving and investing (if you have a retirement plan, you own the means of production).

wealth creation is not predatory. wealth creation benefits us all. i tried to explain/exemplify that.

on the other hand : rent seeking is predatory. it only benefits the rentier at the expense of everyone else. it creates market distortions, squelches innovation, prevents competition, etc..

the problem is the public does not distinguish between these behaviors.

if you can curb rent seeking while sparing wealth creation, im all the way with you taxing rents to a reasonable non-punitive level.

for example, the capital gains tax is capped at 20%. this is how the rich get the bulk of their income.

instead of trying to go 70% of “wages” like o’casio wants, just level up capital gains with the income tax!

and please dont waste that money offering free ponies to everyone and their mother. fix the fucking crumbling infrastructure instead.

as for healthcare, just finish fixing obamacare and preserve consumer choice. no need to conscript doctors into a national army. we’re closer to the swiss model.


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