Post-Sonic youth
 

Did anything happen in terms of ambition that beat SY? Just curious, cause I think it hasn't. I don't listen to them much anymore, yet I listen to loads of bands/musicians they influenced in one way or another, but seem to lack the same sort of ambition they have.

I think not. I asked that myself the last time after reading "goodbye 20th century" book.
but its one of the reason why I like them so much. and maybe its a reason that they still exist as a band too.

thinking fellers union local # 282 probably come the closest.

Maybe there are other reasons beyond that. I have been listening listening to so much Los Llamarada recently I think they could be possible heirs, even though it's way too difficult to tell. All I know is that they create the same sort cathartic climate I don't seem to get from other bands. Ambition-wise I wouldn't know, that's up to the individuals in the band, I suppose.

FUCK NO.

you do, though. :)

Hah.

Also, let's keep this discussion to rock bands, if we can. There are people out there who make more ambitious music than SY in other 'fields'.

Do they sponser Scissor Shock or something? :p

well, Queens of the Stone Age. they know what they are doing.

Polvo moreso than the Thinking Fellers imo.

i've already found ùyselmf wondering about the same sort of existential questions. Will I ever stumble upon a band or artist with such a broad and consistent back catalogue? the answer so far is no.
I'm not too sure about ambition but as Al said reading the fantastic biog that i literally SWALLOWED LIKE A FATTY DOUGHNUT last summer, they clearly know : knew what they wanted and more importantly what they didn't want.

MOGWAI haven't been mentioned yet. They alreadyhave a good consistent catalogue, although the last one is really subpar to me, and then the individualiries certainly don't compare with SY's charismatic people.
I dunno.

If you would have said that in 1999, I would probably agreee with you.

I think it's kind of useless to search for an "heir." Obviously everyone will have their own opinion, just like everyone had their own opinion of Sonic Youth until the legacy was more set in stone. And even then, opinions vary.

I don't think it's quite ambition that we're talking about, though. It's more of a combination of ambition, innovation, and some level of success. I think there are plenty of bands as ambitious as SY, but that doesn't mean anything if they're not interesting. Innovation, on the other hand, has been kind of stagnant. But I always wonder if that means we're running out of interesting things, or if we just need new innovators with ambition and the ability to make themselves known.

By "ambition" you seem to mean experimentation? I know you hate that way of putting it, but "ambition" to implies trying to be bigger rather than trying to push the envelope, and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that.

Of course on both fronts, the "rock" band that has arguably done so would be Radiohead. I'm not nearly as into them as Sonic Youth myself, but I can't deny that they have pushed the envelope of rock music more than anyone recently who is noticeable to the mass public. Hell, they did it and somehow got more popular, so they must have been "ambitious" (even if their evolved sound may remind us of everyone from Eno to Boards of Canada).

But I think success--not so much trying to become bigger, but persisting at something that ended up becoming bigger--really was a huge part of Sonic Youth's ambition. It's not quite the same to be a highly innovative nobody (like Branca) as it is to be a middleman for popular culture (like SY). Branca is practically unknown outside of his own influences, but Sonic Youth--whom he directly influenced--brought a different kind of ambition, one that just happened to click with the mainstream. Sonic Youth did aim for success, though not necessarily on purpose, and that's what sets them apart. In my mind, at least.

I believe personally that Sonic Youth have taught me that a life fragile disoriented a dissonant can be healed throught the observation of 4 normal people with personal histories not so disclosed, that could get together and maybe unknowingly lead those who take little msgs too far, while not meaning so and just maybe just experimenting with theory alot.
cuz there is a lot of theory to their ways
the tunings
why the notes are dissonant and why when the guitar is so fucked out of reality it can be played beautifully
they taught me that w/ out knowing it.
I'm actually just bipolar/ schizo-affective and just really learned this after doing something desperate to assure that strangers wouldn't take earnest efforts of human contact as being something

.. fake.

Because I am not.

if you don't know why i wrote this.
check some threads... the sweater could have unnecessary holes
and is not warming me.
I need this light in chaos

i also need all music and art to influence my fragile mind.

but i was greatly offended and went into a serious existential moment.
because I was sincere
and was met with great opposition.

I am truly sorry.

I wish everyone very well.

will take lil blue pil
stop almost having an angina.
sleep
wake
be normal again cuz that's all it takes.
and realise I did a good job in handling considering the gravity.
I went to a big city hospital and networked myself
it worked
i'll live
and i'll be terribly embarassed about it the rest of my life.
lol
i'll be ok.
thanks to some. thanks to all.
and thanks to DEMONRAIL FOR INDIRECTLY CAUSING ME TO SAVE MY OWN LIFE

such is the enigmatic existence of one who sees too much and can't distinguish what is a good lead from a bad one.
and be their healing.

wow

tl;dr

uh?
I said QOTSA, dammit! forget this schizo bullshit.

Wow. I indirectly saved someone's life. go me.

Sugar Bear...

I don't think there are. The only band to have come after SY that remotely springs to mind is, as has already been mentioned, Radiohead. Actually,the only band before or since SY that I'd put above them in terms of their ambition is probably The Beatles. Pink Floyd might be another candidate, but they strike me as being ambitious in a slightly different way to either SY or the Beatles.

This is why I have trouble with the whole "ambitious" thing. Besides Radiohead, arguably U2 might be there (though they mostly have been around simultaneously with Sonic Youth), it just so happens their ambition has led them to make albums I hate. They've still flirted with increasing the vocabulary of mainstream superstardom, it's just they're so damn annoying.

I think the problem is in thinking of ambition as a single thing. U2's ambition strikes me as being rather different to that of SY's or The Beatles'. With U2 it seemed more about maximising their commercial standing by self-consciously adapting their sound in order to break America.
Saying that, one of the most interesting things about SY has been the way in which they've so meticulously managed their career. That kind of power usually only comes with enormous commercial success, or none whatsoever. That SY have managed it while remaining on the fringes of the mainstream is one of the things ! admire most about them.

Yeah that sums up what I meant with my first post. They managed to have many 'difficult' good albums, never one that was 'terribly' shit, yet many people know who they are, they did invent a way of playing rock music which is still annoying to Madonna fans, and also entered collective consciouness to a certain degree. Radiohead are way more famous than them, but they didn't invent anything and play crap music. Don't get me started on U2, there is enough slaging them off as it is.

Whatever people's personal view of Radiohead is, they remain an interesting band in their own right. I wouldn't say they 'invented' a new way of playing Rock, but then I wouldn't say SY did either. I think both bands perfected a direction touched at by other bands that ultimately lacked their ambition. To begin with, SY were never doing anything all that radically different from, say, Live Skull. The difference is that Live Skull would've never had the ambition (either in terms of their creative or commercial imagination) to push things forward enough to create something like Daydream Nation. I don't know much about the bands that Radiohead progressed beyond, but I'm sure the same would stand - at least in terms of an album like OK Computer or Kid A.

I think another quite unique aspect of SY is the way in which they've so consistently managed to intersect with cutting edge areas of fashion and art. Certainly this isn't something bands like U2, or even Radiohead can boast. Although there are countless bands that have. The Beatles were great at it, but ultimately had too short a career to compare with SY's. Ditto The Sex Pistols and The Velvets. The Stones obviously had a great sense of what was going on around them (especially in areas of fashion), but this only really lasted up until the mid 70s. Ditto The Who up to around 1966. Bowie's an obvious case but by the 80s he'd pretty much abandoned any interest in incorporating his interest in the arts into his actual music (effectively treating it as a seperate hobby). Roxy Music are another obvious one, but that seemed more confined to their early period. Pink Floyd, despite their ineluctable 'artiness' seem never to have concerned themselves much with what was taking place elsewhere in the arts. In that sense I really do think that the sheer ambition of SY's vision is pretty much unrivalled, at least in terms of its commitment over such a prolonged period.

Fascinating thread this.

Sonic Youth didn't invent rock music for sure, yet they managed to to make it sound more deranged than other mainstream bands and still Starbucks ask people to compile an album with their songs to put on sale in their shops, film directors, fashion designers, prestigious gallery owners all want to have a slice of them. Radiohead aren't the worst band in the world, to a certain degree I think they have also produced some excellent stuff visually, but their records are way too indebted to a certain way of doing things wich used to work out very well with british rock, but with them doesn't seem to move forward like it used to. Also, we are talking about a band that has a pretty small back-catalogue compared to SY, yet they've been going on for over 17 years.

I don't think there has been any band as ambitious as them since. And I think the only band that ambitious before was the Beatles.


Though I think Fugazi was pretty ambitious in a social sense, and to a certain extent an art sense. But in a different way than Sonic Youth.

Bjork maybe? At least in terms of the criteria being set out. I don't think she comes close to SY in terms either of impact or career longevity but I do see certain similarities at least in terms of their type of ambition.

Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band.

Again, i think that while Captain Beefheart clearly had a vision that could be described as ambitious, itwas very different to SY's. Captain Beefheart reminds me more of someone like Mark E. Smith or Neil Haggerty in taking an entirely individualistic attitude that had almost no regard for the conditions of popular acceptance. SY on the other hand have from quite early on made it explicit just how important mainstream recognition was for them.

The other problem I think is that ambition seems to take different forms and levels within SY itself. I think it's safe to say that Lee is more musically ambitious than Kim, whose ambition seems more about the role the band can play within popular youth culture. While Thurston's ambitions seem increasingly more focused on ways in which his band can serve as a kind of trojan horse for other less successful (but in his eyes perhaps even more worthy) ones. This in itself makes SY's ambition such a formidable (and admirable) entity.

Well-said.

The Captain was delusional, though, and thought his music was going to be well-accepted by the mainstream.