Jim O'rourke Ruined SONIC YOUTH!!!
 

So, with Rather Ripped can we finally settle the debate about whether or not it was Jim's "fault" that sonic youth were moving in a more "rock" or "classic rock" influenced direction?

I thought this was a really funny scapegoat kinda argument some people were making. Sonic Youth said time after time that Jim had little to do w/ the genesis of the songs, mostly because he himself was tentative to have that kind of influence on the band, but instead added basslines, subtle guitar parts, an extra dimension, or production. Most of the songs on Murray Street were straight up written by Thurston and then transformed by the band, but every once in a while someone would pop up and be like "Jim O'rourke ruined Sonic Youth, and his influence is clear in the rock nature of the new songs." I never really agreed with these people.

Now, Rather Ripped's got this sweet subtle pop-like sound... Almost completely devoid of extended noise noodling... and Jim's not there... A lot people argued that with Jim in the band they were more comfortable to be a little more extemporaneous and drawn out in their songs. Looks like they may have been right. I remember some quote by thurston or lee saying that because Jim left they wanted to play some more straightforward material so everyone could just grab a guitar and squeeze the song out w/out a lot of calculating.

I do have to say though, that I wasn't too into Jim's production on Nurse and Murray Street, and its nice to hear them recording at a different studio w/ a different flavor.

i thought everyone was nuts. if you pay attention with yr ears to what Jim adds in guitar work to sonic's past few records, He was bringing the noise and the noise jams/riffs. he kept the old school sonic sound alive and well buried deep within the new sonic sound. I'll miss Jim, but I haven't heard the new record to make this opinion concrete.

well if you haven't heard the new album yet, i think the production isn't too different actually as compared to Nurse or Murray Street eventhough it was recorded at Sear and not Murray Street... Rather Ripped seems a abit more "slick" production-wise, the guitars have a similar feel as the last 2 albums, except i'm hearing weird effects that i'm not use to coming from Lee (sounds at times like chorus or flanging effects which he isn't known to use)... the main difference is that the songs are indeed more short and concise and direct... subtle pop like sound? i think its alot more than just "subtle" in SY-terms... and agreed Rather Ripped is without alot of the "classic" SY guitar-noise...

O'Rourke's fault? ...don't see how you can blame him as it was the band's decision to add him in the first place, and you can't really say that Jim was the main instigator of having the band have "more extemporaneous and drawn out... songs". an example is A Thousand Leaves, those songs on that album are pretty exploratory and lengthy and had nothing to do w/ O'Rourke's presence since they were still a quartet.

Yeah, yeah, my overall feeling is that the core members of the youth just basically do whatever they want and determine the new sound. I'm don't blame Jim for anything (hence the super-ironic post title). I do get the feeling that because Jim left they indeed decided to go for a tighter more immediate sound. I think the oddest thing on the record is that Lee takes some big rock guitar leads every once and awhile which he only really did like a couple of times on dirty and jet-set.

On the production side I feel like Rather Ripped sounds much warmer than the two records with Jim. I think there's a better balance between Thurston and Lee's guitars, but maybe that's just because the third guitar is absent. The sound on Murray Street and Nurse sounded a bit clinical and calculated to me, especially murray street.

Interesting take, right now i think much of Rather Ripped is overly calculated with typical "pop and rock"-like progressions that the band had always steered away from in their past, now it seems that they are comfortable w/ taking this format on "head-on" which is strange but interesting, yet at times it will make them sound like the band they are not. i'm not dissing this album... its taking its time w/ me because of what i say above.

i don't want to say much else, since i still feel guilty for hearing the album already, and i intended to wait til the release date.

Yeah, my only problem with calculation on the new record is like when they try to go for something noisey. It's kind of like the same pattern with the noise happening two-thirds of the way through, building for a short period of time and then diffusing back into the original riff from the song or another big chorus kind of take.

yeah yeah I agree with you... i'm also noticing that much of the songs sound similar, not quite sure if it has more to do with the recording production or less with the song structures.

i should say that if you like the "softer, melodic, pretty side" of SY, this album is great for that and the production pushes that.

thurston needs to stop frontin about how much he likes wolf eyes and tell about his undying love for Phish.

That's bull shit Jim was a good addition to an all ready great band.

Be cool Jim

jim was great, anyone who says he ruined SY is illadvised

Rather ripped wouldn't tell us if he had a big influence or not. Because if he did, they would continue doing what they were doing with him. If he didn't they would be doing the same thing that they were doing with him. But then again, Sonic Youth has been known to change a lot, doing whatever inspires them at the time.

well fuck, i think the era jim was producing/playing with sonic youth was very distinct and i believe he had considerable influence. although to me its good influence, those 3 records (if you count nyc) are beautiful, so he didnt ruin sonic youth with his influence.

Jim added a real nice additional "layer" to SY....I love those albums and I'm sure I'll love the new one too.

No, sir. YOU ruined Sonic Youth.

NYVG&F Murray Street and Sonic Nurse are all brilliant albums, the three before them (a thousand leaves washing machine and EJSTNS) are less so.
Granted i never saw them live during this period and i dont have any SYRs but going on this alone i think the last few years have yielded the best Sonic Youth albums.

It is strange that of late they have "settled" shall we say with making rock albums, that have been void of thier signiture lenghty feeback and distortion ambience. I sort of miss the five minutes distortion bridges, but I still was a fan of "Nurse" for being a very breezy laid back rock album, I questioned this before and another poster said it was because of thier loss of equipment. Yet, didn't they recover a portion of it, and others they could retrieve, re-build, rework other equipment to create thier "sound".

Word. Jim's a great musician, and I wish he was still in SY personally

jim ruined sonic youth and jim definetly ruined wilco...it would have been a thousand times better if wilco stayed with their country roots like A.M. and not this indie bullshit thats so fucking popular today. over and out.

I must say I'm a fan of the earlier works of Sonic Youth, however Murray Street and Nurse were great albums. NYC Ghosts & Flowers, on the other hand, is one of my favourite albums by Sonic Youth. It was a very good mix of old and new in my opinion. So, I say... Jim O'Rourke did not ruin Sonic Youth. As for Wilco... I haven't heard anything by them since their first two albums.

i think jim's touch was subtle, but wonderful. the man knew what he was doing, it wasn't just trial and error. as for wilco, i love what jim o'rourke did with them. both of the albums he was involved with have a much more interesting sound than any of the other albums wilco put out. i don't think there's a lot of "indie shit" out now that can match up.

I personally liked their last few albums (esp nurse, not so much nyc... murray street is somewhere in my middle). I don't know how much of jims hand was in the creation cookie jar... but it still tasted good.

Also, I wish I hadn't read so much about ripped on this forum... i feel stragne about it now... I'm sampling waste and pink steam right now... that phaser is very strong... and so is the song. Poppy in a good.

HAHAHA!!

I never said Jim "ruined" SY, but I don't think Jim necessarily made Sonic Youth any "better" than they were before he came into the equation, and isn't that the whole part of bringing in additional people, to keep from getting stagnant?

What is great about Sonic Youth?
For me, I will always side with the 85-88 SY but also Goo through Washing Machine. What I liked about SY was the guitar, the guitar, the guitar, and the language Thurston & Lee spoke to eachother when they played off eachother. Maybe a 3rd guitar(whether it was Kim or Jim) was a bit too much, kinda "baroque'd" it? I've personally never been a big fan of 3+ guitarists in a band. SY were also about mixing melody with great guitar action.

Rather Ripped is by far my favorite SY album probably since Thousand Leaves, and I'm starting to like this album even more than A Thousand leaves because of what I feel SY should be for my own personal liking. I never liked the huge "epic" songs that were very long & drawn out except for Daydream Nation. I honestly didn't even like A Thousand Leaves very much and saw a noticeable difference to the approach SY took in their songwriting.

What I see in RATHER RIPPED that was lacking in the last 3 SY albums is:

1. Direct and more simple. I think if you can make your point across as short & sweet, then that's much better than "overcomplicating" things for the sake of "not looking boring". This goes with everything from art, music, even food.

2. Thurston & Lee's guitar. I think they play off eachother much better, in a more fun and aggressive way. I also love the riffs, something that's also been lacking in the last 3 SY albums, a great riff, something to "hang your hat" on.

3. Spirit. I think this album has a more renewed "spirit" that seems more lively, more fun, and more enjoyable than the last 3 SY albums.

I definitely hear reflections of tunic & and cinderella's and some dirty in there but recorded & mixed with the same approach of the last couple albums.

From my understanding, SY might have thought that Jim may have just been a "little different" for their band in the sense that nobody in SY was formally trained at their instrument and Jim was. That does make a difference. You can tell an artist who had not gone to Art School apart from the artist who went to art school easily by their approach and how they see/understand. SY also missed what was great about their past records, straight ahead songs with aggressive overtones.

I definitely hear guitar work on RATHER RIPPED that I haven't heard in the last 2 SY albums.

Personally, I thought the album was just "ok" the first time I heard it. Then I was working on projects at 4am and ended up listening to it on repeat like 5 times, I was begining to hear hooks, riffs, and transitions that were catching my ear. Before I know it, I'm liking half the songs, and right now, I love probably 85-90% of the album with the other 10-15% a high "likeness".

I'm just loving this album more and more. It definitely takes multiple plays to like, but once you start liking the songs, you'll find this album to be a true mark of one of the greatest bands to ever have been formed...easily.

A great band will have "ups & downs". It's how they rebound that determines how great a band is.

SY have definitely (in my book) taken a huge step forward. I feel like SY can make another 5 albums effortlessly.

There is no way that Jim O'Rourke ruined SY. If anything he saved them, as they were losing their way a little with Experimental Jet Set, Washing Machine and A Thousand Leaves, while the three that follow have been consistently good albums rather than patchily good ones.

Shouldn't this be under the "Unpopular Music Opinion" thread?

It's my age. This modern music, it's all just noise, can't hear the words, blah blah blah. ;)

I'm listening to RR as I type this and I see what Khchris' means by the repeated listens needed to extract the quality of the album. I do, however, disagree with the notion that Jim O'rourke was a negative influence on the group. I believe he simply brought more to the band and they needed it at the time. ATL, Murray Street are some of my favorites and I like the laid back approach the band had on those records. RR is definetly more calculated and poppy sounding, I'm not saying SY are those things, thats just how it sounds to me. Is it good, yes, every listen increases the level of quality, and maybe it was good for SY to purge their system from the era of ATL,MS,SN. Perhaps in 5 years we will all look back and say this was the "right" move for them to make. After all, they would have done this album the same with Jim O'Rourke, this due his "hired hand" status and not a total songwriter.

I LIKED Jim, so don't you people bad mouth him. He's an amazing musician. He also added some much needed grounding to the band. Unfortunately, he is no longer in the band, but all of that is the band's business; not ours. I will miss him, but it is also comforting to see Sonic Youth the way they have been for the past 20 years. The "classic" Sonic Youth if you will.

Well, I view Jim leaving as just a parting due to interest.

I am glad at how things turned out though. I was extremely excited to see what Jim could bring to SY since I was a huge GDS fan as well as a fan of Brise Glace, but I guess I was expecting a more aggressive SY with him in the band which never really panned out.

I think I'm glad at how things have turned out because the album sounds more closer to the SY that I personally like more. I never did like NYG&F and to this day, I still try to pop that disc in and it is the only SY album that I really can't even listen all the way through. It is the first album that I really thought had some very boring songs, but that's just me. I also didn't like Murray St but Nurse was better.

I'm really just glad SY got back to melody with aggressive guitar and overtones. That's why I loved Evol, sister, DDN, Goo, Dirty and even Washing Machine more than any of the previous 4 albums.

But I guess it just depends on when you got into SY. I think majority of the fans that got into SY around Washing Machine and before will like this album much more than those who got into SY around NYG&F and after.

nahh, i dont think he ruined SY, but at the same time i think the band could've done without him. I question his involvement really, OK he brought another guitar layer and played bass when Kim wasnt but why fix it if it aint broken?

True that

something to say on this subject ....

Did any of you guys see the last tour!!! Jim playing along on Stones... it fucking rocked !! Let alone what he added to songs like Eric's Trip...

I don't think anyone who witnessed the shows should downplay the value added in live performances... it would have been good without him.. but It fucking rocked my zweet ass off

I love everything SY has done, I didn't see them slipping along the way I see them as breaking new grounds with their sounds...

Well, as far as I'm concerned 'Murray Steet' is narrowly the finest LP ever, by anyone, so I like Jim. He also added genuine freshness to some of the older songs onstage, and I think it's nice to have that little distinct era within the Sonic Youth canon.

this "indie bullshit" movement was spearheaded by sonic youth. does that mean they ruined music just like "jim ruined sonic youth"?

i don't think Jim really ruined SY... Murray is one of the greatests SY albums

i think it's too bad Jim left the band he had a great influence on sonic youth.

i always thought thurston moore was the one ruining sonic youth

GET THE FUCKER OUT OF THE BAND!!!